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June 3, 2011 at 3:18 am (This post was last modified: June 3, 2011 at 8:11 pm by Cinjin.)
(June 2, 2011 at 4:25 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.
Cinjin Cain Wrote:As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!
Prove you don't. Tell me why these things are wrong, just not that they are wrong. Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here.
Cinjin Cain Wrote:] Prove it? Haven't we ALREADY?!? I don't support slavery or dropping bombs or stoning women or severing limbs. I don't steal. I don't kill. I don't rape. I don't molest. I don't do things that hurt other people and I condemn those that do. AND I do this all without your church, your bible or your bloodthirsty god - and have been for some time now. There's your proof.
Statler Waldorf Wrote:You didn't prove what I asked you to.
I proved EXACTLY what you asked me to prove. Christ! just read above from beginning to end. I'll break it down for you ....
I wrote: As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong ...
You Wrote: Prove you don't.
Thus, since I only made that ONE remark, I only need prove that ONE remark. YOU SPECIFICALLY asked me to prove that I don't need your god to know what's right and wrong. That other shit you tacked on the end there had NOTHING to do with what I said. Pay attention to what YOU write.
Quote: I never said you can't be a moral person without the Bible, I said you have no logical basis to be one.
Actually, your ENTIRE argument with Shell B implies this EXACT thing .... That atheists cause wars and great bloodshed because they cannot be moral without your bible. On top of that, you even wrote quote: Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here
Do you see now why you're full of shit?
You alone have done your religion such a disservice with your fucktard ideas and your arrogant attitude. I disagree with Frodo and Tack all the time. Hell, I think Frodo might hate me, but at least those two don't double back on their own words and contradict their own arguments. You're a goddamn piece of work.
Statler, please stop saying logical, being religious is not a logical pathway for your mind. A logical person does not believe in Christianity, who would logically believe in a split personality god? Also remember that morals like not murdering were around 450bc that your religion ripped off. Check out Socrates, the father of ethics. Damn I'm a altruistic person by nature, and I definitely do not believe in god nor a dogmatic religion, I'm just a nice person because i believe in living a good life whilst I am here.
Quote:unless you can show me where Jesus taught his followers to kill Muslims.
Jesus never told his followers to kill jews, either. Never stopped you fuckers.
Since you are asserting this is referring to the God of the Bible, prove it. Highly doubtful considering many of the Nazi leaders such as Himmler were deeply interested in the occult which of course is not a Biblical teaching at all.
(June 2, 2011 at 8:17 pm)Shell B Wrote:
I am not bothering going through this whole spiel anymore. I will just answer what is worth answering and I am not quoting as you are a time suck.
You will know what I am responding to.
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Don't try to bend it. It is what it is.
Well, it looks like your claim was incorrect, as I suspected. By the way, did you add together the deaths from all of the Inquisitions or are you still refusing to acknowledge that there was more than one?
Well I thought we were talking about Christianity and the inquisition? How is a verse from Exodus that clearly falls under the Mosaic Covenant relevant to the New Covenant that Christians live under post-Christ? I am sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that.
I made it clear that the figure I gave included the deaths from all of the inquisitions over the full 350 year time period.
(June 3, 2011 at 3:18 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote:
(June 2, 2011 at 4:25 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: given your atheistic world view, why is slavery and dropping bombs on people even wrong? Seems you have to borrow from my world view in order to even argue against it.
Cinjin Cain Wrote:As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong you arrogant fuck!
Prove you don't. Tell me why these things are wrong, just not that they are wrong. Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here.
Cinjin Cain Wrote:] Prove it? Haven't we ALREADY?!? I don't support slavery or dropping bombs or stoning women or severing limbs. I don't steal. I don't kill. I don't rape. I don't molest. I don't do things that hurt other people and I condemn those that do. AND I do this all without your church, your bible or your bloodthirsty god - and have been for some time now. There's your proof.
Statler Waldorf Wrote:You didn't prove what I asked you to.
I proved EXACTLY what you asked me to prove. Christ! just read above from beginning to end. I'll break it down for you ....
I wrote: As if I need your god to know what's right and wrong ...
You Wrote: Prove you don't.
Thus, since I only made that ONE remark, I only need prove that ONE remark. YOU SPECIFICALLY asked me to prove that I don't need your god to know what's right and wrong. That other shit you tacked on the end there had NOTHING to do with what I said. Pay attention to what YOU write.
Quote: I never said you can't be a moral person without the Bible, I said you have no logical basis to be one.
Actually, your ENTIRE argument with Shell B implies this EXACT thing .... That atheists cause wars and great bloodshed because they cannot be moral without your bible. On top of that, you even wrote quote: Thinking you don't need a higher law giver to have morality is what is really arrogant here
Do you see now why you're full of shit?
You alone have done your religion such a disservice with your fucktard ideas and your arrogant attitude. I disagree with Frodo and Tack all the time. Hell, I think Frodo might hates me, but at least those two don't double back on their own words and contradict their own arguments. You're a goddamn piece of work.
I apologize; I guess I didn't make my point clear. I am going to let it go though because I really don't want to waste my time with someone as hostile as you. So let me know when you have simmered down and maybe we can have a "grown up" discussion.
(June 3, 2011 at 11:41 am)5thHorseman Wrote:
Statler, please stop saying logical, being religious is not a logical pathway for your mind. A logical person does not believe in Christianity, who would logically believe in a split personality god? Also remember that morals like not murdering were around 450bc that your religion ripped off. Check out Socrates, the father of ethics. Damn I'm a altruistic person by nature, and I definitely do not believe in god nor a dogmatic religion, I'm just a nice person because i believe in living a good life whilst I am here.
Well your claim that nobody logical can be a Christian is easy enough to refute. Isaac Watts was a Christian and a Logician (probably the most famous of all time); he also wrote the most widely read work on the subject. Just on this site the other day, I appealed to formal logic and then was told I was stupid. So I beg to differ, atheists are the ones who seem to not want to appeal to logic.
P.S. The trinity is not illogical at all, three beings with one essence is completely fine.
I never said that morals came from my religion, I said that the Biblical worldview is the only worldview that can account for a logical basis for morals; we have the only inerrant law giver. Is that more clear?
The Inquisitions lasted longer than 300 years, Stat.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
That isn't quite saying "burn the witches," but it is clear that Jesus sees fit to torture them for all eternity. It hardly matters, though, Stat. You run around pretending that you are the judge on who is Christian and who is not. If it doesn't fit your definition, they are not Christian. However, several passages in the New Testament are pretty clear that only being a "follower" of Jesus Christ or being "sought by the Lord" are necessary to be Christian. Therefore, who the fuck are you to say who is Christian and who isn't? Did the Lord give you a list of those he has chosen?
Quote:Since you are asserting this is referring to the God of the Bible, prove it.
Okay.
Quote: "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
Sieg Heil, asshole. He was the boss you know? Il capo di tutti capi.
“The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.”
- Adolf Hitler
“The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”
- Adolf Hitler
Uh oh! It does not sound like he was too fond of the God of the Bible to me.
(June 3, 2011 at 7:00 pm)Shell B Wrote:
The Inquisitions lasted longer than 300 years, Stat.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
That isn't quite saying "burn the witches," but it is clear that Jesus sees fit to torture them for all eternity. It hardly matters, though, Stat. You run around pretending that you are the judge on who is Christian and who is not. If it doesn't fit your definition, they are not Christian. However, several passages in the New Testament are pretty clear that only being a "follower" of Jesus Christ or being "sought by the Lord" are necessary to be Christian. Therefore, who the fuck are you to say who is Christian and who isn't? Did the Lord give you a list of those he has chosen?
Everything I can find says the inquisition time period lasted around 350 years, which is what I originally posted.
I figured you’d take this hypocritical approach. Here you are, saying that people who clearly violated the teachings of Christ (killing and torturing their fellow man) were somehow followers of Christ. When I point out how ridiculous this is, then you tell me that I have no right to say who is and who is not a follower of Christ. Well that of course would apply to you too even though you seem to think you’re the expert. All I know is a person’s works are a testament of their saving faith, the people you are pointing to displayed immoral works, so it is highly doubtful they had saving faith. You have still not provided to me where Jesus taught his followers to kill witches and Muslims.
(June 3, 2011 at 6:46 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: I apologize; I guess I didn't make my point clear. I am going to let it go though because I really don't want to waste my time with someone as hostile as you. So let me know when you have simmered down and maybe we can have a "grown up" discussion.
Nice one. Turn it around on me. You insult an entire online community with some bogus historical nonsense about atheists (which isn't even remotely the subject of the OP), than act indignant over the reaction you get. As if I'M the irrational one.
"Grown up discussion" ... who are you kidding? You don't have discussions with people - you hold lectures.
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Everything I can find says the inquisition time period lasted around 350 years, which is what I originally posted.
The last execution of the Spanish Inquisition that we know of took place in the 1800s. That is 700 years, not 300.
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: I figured you’d take this hypocritical approach.
Nothing about what you describe below is hypocritical. I have never once presumed to tell you who is Christian and who is not based only on my opinion. The only time I refer to someone as a Christian is when they have referred to themselves thusly. Oh, and all of those quotes you regurgitated at Min say nothing about whether he considered himself a Christian or not.
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Here you are, saying that people who clearly violated the teachings of Christ (killing and torturing their fellow man) were somehow followers of Christ.
Christ saw nothing wrong with condemning people to hell. That is torture. So, how again does torture go against his teachings?
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: When I point out how ridiculous this is, then you tell me that I have no right to say who is and who is not a follower of Christ.
Not based on the criteria you give. A Christian is a person who has been chosen by god. That is quite clear in the bible. You find god, you become a Christian. Not, Stat gave me the seal of approval, so now I am a Christian. I wonder, how many crusaders did the church see fit to canonize? Looks like they were Christians, bitch.
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Well that of course would apply to you too even though you seem to think you’re the expert.
You presume to know what I think now? You really a self important fucker, aren't you?
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: All I know is a person’s works are a testament of their saving faith
How do you know that? How do you know that god didn't tell them to do what they did? How do you know that they didn't find god?
(June 3, 2011 at 8:12 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: the people you are pointing to displayed immoral works, so it is highly doubtful they had saving faith. You have still not provided to me where Jesus taught his followers to kill witches and Muslims.
How do you know god didn't "will it," as they so loved to claim?
Interestingly, I never said that Jesus told his followers to kill witches and Muslims. I have no burden of proof. You wildly asked me to prove this to show that Jesus gave the go ahead for the Crusades and Inquisitions. Interestingly, I never said that, either. All I said was that those people were Christians. You are the one who made up the false criteria for being a Christian. I found my criteria for it in your holy book. So, I am not going to hunt for proof of something I never said. You still have not admitted that you pulled your insane statistics out of your ass. You went from a combination of the death tolls of Crusades and the Inquisitions were less than one day in Cambodia during the genocide. Then, you only counted less than half of the Inquisition years and changed your tune to a week, instead of a day. Fuck that, Stat. Why should I provide you with anything when you are just making shit up as you go? Your debates are filled with half truths and dishonesty. Don't even bother replying. I am entirely sick of having to pull teeth to get a fact out of you and tired of you putting up strawmen and then asking me to prove them when I never even suggested them.
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