A question regarding proof

[Erinome]

All we have is your word you had a dream about a pony. Personally, I don't believe you. It could be true, but it's a dream about a pony... so who cares.

[Fred]

Sounds like a claim of absolute certainty. It's probably more appropriate to say that you have no such evidence, and are currently at a loss as to how to provide such evidence.

---

It is a claim of absolute certainty. I have no evidence and nobody else does either, so I can't produce what doesn't exist.

That being said, I've had dreams, many people report dreams. Ponies don't sound too far fetched do they.

It doesn't sound far-fetched? How can this be? You said you base your entire worldview on evidence. There simply isn't a shred of evidence for it. People report all sorts of shit, so that's no help.

No evidence, no pony.

I definitely don't have any evidence to the contrary.

You have no evidence, period. None.

There doesn't seem to be anything in this statement that is so far fetched as to require verification

There is nothing far fetched about something for which there is not a shred of evidence that it even exists? Explain.

PS: I don't think any of this means what you think it means, or supports some argument that you're going to attempt to make anyway.

Heh. I assure you this means what I think it means and supports my argument coming and going. Let's just walk it through without assuming where it's going.

[Erinome]

I see where this is going, and I can assure you that this kind of crap is not going to make us lift you up on our shoulders as we exclaim how brilliant and great you are for showing us that just because something can't be proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is just ridiculous.

[The Grand Nudger]

What doesn't exist? Dreams, ponies, you? That you may have had a dream about a pony wouldn't be far fetched because we know that all of these things do exist, we have evidence for each. Tying them all together without hard evidence would require trust. That trust would be directly proportionate to the audacity of the claim ( and my judgement of your trustworthiness).

As has already been mentioned, if the claim where "I had a dream about a pony and then it appeared in my room" well, that one would require a bit more evidence.

Again, that any of these things themselves can be shown to exist makes it a less than fantastic claim, but again to be technical, as I've already mentioned, one would have to side with "didn't happen". That's not exactly how human beings operate on a day to day basis with the mundane is it. The sorts of reasoning that we use for personal interaction have been shown to be inadequate with regards to claims of knowledge, specifically scientific knowledge. I hope you don't feel that any of this is earth shattering for anyone involved.

Your claim to absolute certainty is btw much more difficult to substantiate than some like, oh, IDK, materialism.

[Fred]

Oh, I see, you were trying to trick me.

No, sir. Not at all. No tricks, no bullshit. Just playing by the rules as stated. Stick with it, because it gets really interesting.

Obviously not the same thing, mostly because whether or not you dreamed about a pony doesn't matter.

That's a value judgement and it doesn't change anything. There is still no evidence for my pony.

Rather than say I'd believe you, it would be better to say 'I would think nothing of your claim'.

But you didn't say that. You said you would be inclined to believe me and didn't even stop to question it at all. I find that odd, given that there isn't a shred of credible evidence for it.

If you made a claim that you dreamed about a pony and it became real, that would require further testing.

Stick with the example. You can test all all you want as long as you want. There's no evidence for a pony. And if there's no evidence, the pony doesn't exist.

---

[quote='aleialoura' pid='175891' dateline='1315439471']
All we have is your word you had a dream about a pony. Personally, I don't believe you. It could be true, but it's a dream about a pony... so who cares.

Right. You only have my word and it's good that you don't believe me. How could you when there's no evidence for the existence of dream ponies? Whether you care or not is immaterial. (Hey, that's evidence for you, Rhythm!)

---

I see where this is going, and I can assure you that this kind of crap is not going to make us lift you up on our shoulders as we exclaim how brilliant and great you are for showing us that just because something can't be proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is just ridiculous.

I agree. So instead of your off-base assumption, let's just stick with my argument and see where it goes.

For all the talk about how atheism is based upon reason and logic, they sure seem to scare the living shit out of you folks.

[ElDinero]

Snore.

Ok, you've taught me a valuable lesson in semantics.

[Erinome]

I've noticed you're really awful at making a clear point. The problem with your arguments: They don't go anywhere. None that I've seen anyway. Just a lot of vagueness that maybe might make some sense eventually.

[The Grand Nudger]

Reminds me of a Ken Wilber clip. Many words spoken, not much said.

[Fred]

[quote][quote='Rhythm' pid='175917' dateline='1315441281']
What doesn't exist? Dreams, ponies, you? [/quote]

Do dream ponies exist? Nope. No evidence.

[quote]That you may have had a dream about a pony wouldn't be far fetched because we know that all of these things do exist, we have evidence for each. [/quote]

I don't care what you have evidence for. I only care about what you have no evidence for--my dream pony. There isn't any because they don't exist.

[quote]Tying them all together without hard evidence would require trust.[/quote]

Bullshit. I don't trust anybody who says they have had a dream about a pony because there is no evidence for them. Keep the faith, thanks, the only thing that counts is evidence and you have none whatsoever. I don't give a fuck about what you claim to know. I only care what you do know. If you can't demonstrate evidence for a dream pony, you have no pony.

[quote]That trust would be directly proportionate to the audacity of the claim ( and my judgement of your trustworthiness). [/quote]

That trust would be directly proportional to the idiocy of the person displaying it. What we know is what can be demonstrated, end of. Demonstrate your dream pony or STFU. I ain't got time for your faith. I base my entire worldview on evidence, and you ain't got any. You want to babble about faith, go talk to a fundie.

[quote]As has already been mentioned, if the claim where "I had a dream about a pony and then it appeared in my room" well, that one would require a bit more evidence.[/quote]

I'm sorry, but a bit more nothing is still nothing. There is no evidence for dream ponies and your faith-statements are not negotiable currency here in the real world, Rhythm.

[quote]Again, that any of these things themselves can be shown to exist makes it a less than fantastic claim, but again to be technical, as I've already mentioned, one would have to side with "didn't happen". [/quote]

Footprints, eh? Whatever. When you get a shred of evidence for the beast, say something. As of now, you are taking a lot of words to say nothing.

[quote]That's not exactly how human beings operate on a day to day basis with the mundane is it. [/quote]

Nope. But humans are known to be crazy, so who cares what they say? That's why we got science in the first place and given endless babble from crazy people or real evidence, I'm forced to side with the real. You can keep the unreal if it suits you. Just don't expect to be taken seriously as any kind of rational being.

[quote]The sorts of reasoning that we use for personal interaction have been shown to be inadequate with regards to claims of knowledge, specifically scientific knowledge. [/quote]

The only knowledge that can be claimed is that for which evidence exists. The rest is sound and fury, and I'm guessing even you know what that signifies.

[quote]I hope you don't feel that any of this is earth shattering for anyone involved.[/quote]

Hell no. It takes more than a little bit of logic and evidence to shake folks outta their faith, Rhythm. Surely you can vouch for that.

[quote]Your claim to absolute certainty is btw much more difficult to substantiate than some like, oh, IDK, materialism.[/quote]

No it isn't. There isn't a shred of evidence for my dream pony, and neither me nor anyone else can do anything about it. What's so hard to substantiate about that?

[The Grand Nudger]

What's hard to substantiate is that there could be no evidence. That you have none is clear. Going further is stretching. That's making a claim to perfect knowledge. I don't see a problem with the rest of your post of the grounds of evidence. Dream ponies without evidence don't exist.