Yahweh is all powerful, yet, my god is better than your GOD

[Minimalist]

The earliest undisputed reference which survives outside the bible for the existence of Jesus was by Tacitus (around 105 C.E.) which he got clearly from here-say.

No one in antiquity cites the Tacitus reference, not xtian, not pagan. Much like the Testimonium Flavianum it appears to be a much later forgery. Part of it appears in a 5th century work called Chronica by Sulpicius Severus but without the "Pilate the procurator" reference which xtians like to wrap their scrotums around. Severus does not cite Tacitus as his source, either, which gives the impression that he was the original author of the piece.

Please forward me a paper which discusses about this, if such a passage was a forgery that is not surprising since Christians will happily lie and deceive others for the betterment of their faith.

I keep this handy for just these occasions, Justt.

(I've used Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writings web site to spot check.)

http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/Nero.htm

Here is the citation from Severus' Chronica.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII11-5.TXT

Book II

CHAPTER XXIX.

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it
happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at
Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the
emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of
building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried
escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He
therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel
tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds
of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts,
they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain
by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day
came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the
night. In this way, cruelty tint began to be manifested against the
Christians. Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which
were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to
be a Christian. At that time Paul and Peter were condemned to death, the
former being beheaded with a sword, while Peter suffered crucifixion. And

[Minimalist]

I took great pains to explain to you why it is difficult if not impossible for an atheist to be elected to office in the USA.

But it has happened.

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them."

--Abraham Lincoln

Granted since the xtian fundie movement began in the late 19th century it has not happened much. Those fuckers probably can't believe that they let a papist fuck like Kennedy get in there!

[ElDinero]

Not convinced on that, Min. As with many figures in America's history, there appear to be quotes by him and about him that would paint Lincoln as an atheist, a theist or a deist. Even if it was definitive, the quote you provided would only say he wasn't a Christian, it certainly wouldn't make him an atheist.

[IATIA]

Not convinced on that, Min. As with many figures in America's history, there appear to be quotes by him and about him that would paint Lincoln as an atheist, a theist or a deist. Even if it was definitive, the quote you provided would only say he wasn't a Christian, it certainly wouldn't make him an atheist.

He believed in god, but did not worship god. That gives him the appearance of either theist or atheist depending on the context of the quote.

[Minimalist]

Not convinced on that, Min. As with many figures in America's history, there appear to be quotes by him and about him that would paint Lincoln as an atheist, a theist or a deist. Even if it was definitive, the quote you provided would only say he wasn't a Christian, it certainly wouldn't make him an atheist.

An additional example then:

"In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ."
-- Judge James M Nelson, who had an intimate acquaintance with Lincoln in Washington, in the Louisville Times, in 1887, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beleifs of Our Presidents, p. 137

I trust you know who Robert Green Ingersoll was?

[ElDinero]

I'm not saying he wasn't, and the point isn't really that important anyway. It's just you can find quotes about tons of historical figures to prove they were an atheist/deist/theist, so I try not to read too much into them.

He also said 'Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it' so it's difficult to be conclusive unless someone is extremely outspoken and explicit about their beliefs.

Edit: He also said this:

We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!

[Castle]

...Santa does coke? What the fuck?

---

Also, I just noticed Castle has gone back to this fucking imagination thing that I absolutely destroyed him on last week. Castle - YOU NEED TO PROVE THAT ATHEISTS DO NOT HAVE HEALTHY IMAGINATIONS. You have not proven this is true yet! You cannot move on to commentary about the effects of atheists not having healthy imaginations without first proving that is the case.

Being Spiritual sided and not belonging to a group makes me less bias to viewing from all side and groups views. Religion tends to be based on magic, experience yet do lead the world with a fair degree of imagination. Religion lacks science and Atheist has the highest degree of profession scientist in which society is lacking in order to shortly follow up on imagination ideas.

Science seems to be based on evidence and technology. Imagination, which is spiritual sensation, and has an immediately understanding or reason? Science lacks inspiration as it seems to be in the mode of irreverent conclusions' Making Science lame for the imagination of the darkest. In the context of the size of the universe, if science tries envisioning the scale of Universe they would tend to ignore the many possibilities. Today's science acknowledges dealing with vast lack of knowledge of dark matter and dark energy, is humbling to our minds.Yet, Einstein quoted the most incomprehensible thing about Universe is the Universe comprehensible
Science technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[ElDinero]

I agree fully with your use of that emoticon. The rest of your post, as usual, makes no sense at all.

[Minimalist]

I'm not saying he wasn't, and the point isn't really that important anyway.

True. I think Obama is far too smart to believe in that horseshit but for political purposes he ends every speech with the god bless america routine so the nut jobs don't go fucking crazy.

Now, Bush.... there was a true believer. A double-digit IQ moron. I'm sure he was a fine xtian.

[Castle]

I took great pains to explain to you why it is difficult if not impossible for an atheist to be elected to office in the USA. Go back and read it again, it was very simple.
[/quote]

About 100 years ago in North America there were 98% Christian; imagine how difficult it would have been for any atheist to build a history. Yet Thomas Jefferson drew up the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, absence of word God, which has stood up till today.

It is known to my god and me alone Thomas Jefferson (1776) The Constitution It is the framework for the organization of the United States government ...

Now imagine most of the countries in the Middle East where God is law in their Constitution. The problem is when a person over protects their group to the point of breaking their own ethic or morals in case most Americans still thinks they are Christian Nation. .

Throughout his life, however, Jefferson strenuously denied that he held orthodox Christian beliefs or that he desired the mixing of politics and religion in government. Instead, Jefferson's religious philosophy centered on 18th century concepts of natural law. Jefferson placed significant value on the ability of human beings to use reason to understand their world

“But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg “Thomas Jefferson”