Mormon: "There is no such thing as rape."

[Minimalist]

There are lots of contradictory verses in the bible too, Rayaan. The fact that you can come up with one to back your position does not change the fact that the others still exist.

In fact, what it suggests is that all of this stuff was cribbed together by very fallible humans with an agenda rather than some god.

[The Grand Nudger]

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good." [Surah 4:19]

Why is it that these surahs always have "minor" disclaimers when laying down the law regarding human rights and women?

[Ziploc Surprise]

I think that's a bullshit video. The guy doesn't speak for all Muslims and he quoted hadiths (or speeches of Muhammad that were collected and written down 200 years after his death) that doesn't specifically say that raping is OK. That's his own interpretation and I don't agree with it. Why? Because I'm very sure that rape is a crime and a sin in Islam. The religion has a strict rule against rape and the punishment for such behavior can range from 100 lashes (or X number of lashes) as a minimum punishment to even a death sentence.

Also, there are many verses in the Quran which emphasize the importance of treating one's wife with respect and to be patient with them. Example: "O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good." [Surah 4:19]

Fuck you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4PFnl1S...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaukF5CdVCg&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUP42nSP1...re=related

How many more videos do you want?

[edk]

Bravo! You mentioned actual defense mechanisms. Clothing is no such thing, unless it is some sort of chastity garb.

Which is why nobody has suggested it is (mormon bloggers excepted).

[Rev. Rye]

In the interests of fairness, I've actually emailed a site called "Askamormon.com" to clarify the Mormon Church's teachings about rape. This is what I got back.

I've never heard of him and by your description sounds like to me this guy is way out of line. The things he says is definitely not taught by the church. Victims of rape (or any abuse for that matter) have enough to deal with without laying upon them bogus guilt trips. We should embrace and help them - not blame them.

I definitely think that Mormonism is a perfect microcosm of everything I find repugnant about organized religion, but at least they have standards that, evidently, Michael Crook does not.

[IATIA]

So because she did not defend her virtue to the death, it is considered 'consensual'?

Can you spell G-U-I-L-L-O-T-I-N-E ?

[Rayaan]

Ziploc Surprise,

Not every action that a Muslim does is representative of Islam. I don't always judge Islam by seeing what others did in the name of this religion. There are times when Muslims do not apply the instructions from the scripture under the right situations or in a manner that they are told to. Also, there are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims, and just because you saw a Muslim do something bad to his wife (or anyone else) doesn't mean that you should automatically equate that to Islam. And I've seen many more videos like the ones that you posted. So, you don't have to show me anymore videos.

There are lots of contradictory verses in the bible too, Rayaan. The fact that you can come up with one to back your position does not change the fact that the others still exist.

There's many more that I know of, but I didn't want to quote too many. As for the contradictions, I discussed this in another thread by looking at specific examples posted by other members. But, yeah, if you believe that the contradictions are true, then it's certainly reasonable to believe that they were created by fallible human beings rather some god.

"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and God will bring about through it a great deal of good." [Surah 4:19]

Why is it that these surahs always have "minor" disclaimers when laying down the law regarding human rights and women?

As it is with many rules, there can be exceptions for certain things and that's the reason why these "minor" disclaimers are included.

These disclaimers are usually stated as a permission (as the one that you quoted in bold letters), meaning that one does not have to stop showing love or respect, but that it is merely allowed if you feel that the circumstances warrant a harsher approach. The central message of the verse is to try to be good to your wives as much as possible and that is the most preferable option according to the Quran (hence "live with them on a footing of kindness and equity"). Of course, you don't necessarily need a book to tell you that. An atheist can have the same opinion based on his or her common sense.

[Ziploc Surprise]

Not every action that a Muslim does is representative of Islam. I don't always judge Islam by seeing what others did in the name of this religion. There are times when Muslims do not apply the instructions from the scripture under the right situations or in a manner that they are told to. Also, there are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims, and just because you saw a Muslim do something bad to his wife (or anyone else) doesn't mean that you should automatically equate that to Islam. And I've seen many more videos like the ones that you posted. So, you don't have to show me anymore videos.

Over the years I've had many Muslim friends of mine who fall in the milder category you mention above. They were very decent, kind, and morally upright people. I had (and have) only one fault with them. They, like you, turn a blind eye to the horrors of your religion.

Islam, in it's milder form, isn't that bad. The moderate and beyond forms are reprehensible. They shame the entire religion. How about instead of turning a blind eye you morn for the people who are being abused everyday? How about you do something about the injustice upon injustice upon injustice they face every day? How about you hide your head in shame? Their behavior is horribly shameful and it shames and dishonors the entire religion. Reprehensible behavior is inexcusable. How about you take some personal responsibility and help to regulate your own religion?

[Phaedra]

Honestly ElD, I don't know, I haven't noticed society teaching women not to get raped. But lots of people seem to think it does, and all I was trying to say is that if it makes less people get raped I don't see the problem.

What the hell are you on about? This society absolutely does teach women to not get raped. It might not be noticeable to you, but the training starts very early. Don't go out alone at night. Don't wear a short skirt. Don't leave your drink unattended. Don't approach large groups of men by yourself. There are a million little "rules" that women live by to avoid getting raped.

[ElDinero]

A hundred lashes, you say! Well, I think anyone on the end of THAT punishment would learn their lesson.

You're right to be embarrassed, Rayaan. Amazing that your religion is vague enough that people can draw that conclusion from it. No Muslim speaks for all Muslims.