(August 25, 2015 at 3:07 am)robvalue Wrote: OK point taken, God was haggling with Abraham not Lot. I made a mistake there.

That hardly impacts any of the points I made though, which have not been addressed. I see you don't even want to talk about why angels are so weak they can be raped, or whether they have bum holes. Or whether God was playing with his own bum hole and needed a man and his family to protect his angels.

God is not coming across as powerful, he's coming across as "giving it a college try" with his limited resources, and going about it in a psycopathic manner. As well as being haggled with. Why exactly did he need to send in angels, why didn't he already know what immorality was supposedly happening in the town?

I feel a certain kind of sympathy, you are in the position of defending the indefensible. The more you try and paint God and Lot as the good guys here, the more you sink into an immoral quagmire.

The Lot story is like the flip side of the Rahab the Jericho hooker's story in Joshua chapter 2.  Joshua had sent out  two spies to see how to attack Jericho.  The hooker Rahab (one of Jesus' ancestors) collaborated with the enemy and betrayed her townspeople for destruction at the hands of the Israelites.  And just like Lot, she saved her own skin while the people she had know were slaughtered.

Indeed. I wonder if these two stories were originally the same orally told story, and ended up as two different versions over time. I know they say "history repeats itself" but this is ridiculous

(August 25, 2015 at 4:43 am)robvalue Wrote: Indeed. I wonder if these two stories were originally the same orally told story, and ended up as two different versions over time. I know they say "history repeats itself" but this is ridiculous

One of the main points, even if it wasn't intended to be one, is that some people will always sell out their neighbors, friends, and own families if the price is right.  It was true of Abraham, Lot, Rahab, Rebekah, Joseph's brothers, David, and Judas.

(August 19, 2015 at 7:24 pm)jiffy Wrote: I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

-Molesting children, and discriminating against gay people.
-Never attended church in my life.  Never plan to.   Churches are just scams.  (I do believe in god for the record)
-Jesus Christ is a real historical person.  I believe he was the son of god (Not god, but the son of god).  I don't believe the gospels got all the details right, and I'm sure that the church edited many of them heavily.  Why wouldn't they?
-To live life to the fullest.

(August 25, 2015 at 6:15 pm)Divinity Wrote: (I do believe in god for the record)

Probably not the most appropriate place to ask, but what kind of god?

(August 25, 2015 at 6:15 pm)Divinity Wrote: I don't believe the gospels got all the details right, and I'm sure that the church edited many of them heavily.  Why wouldn't they?

Oh, they did. Like throwing out 16 of them during the same Council that decided on which books are to be in the bible and whether Jesus was a god by a vote of majority. Infallibility my ass.

(August 25, 2015 at 6:17 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 25, 2015 at 6:15 pm)Divinity Wrote: (I do believe in god for the record)

Probably not the most appropriate place to ask, but what kind of god?

I believe in a god that is incomprehensible to the human mind.  one not bound to the laws of our universe, because he or she did not come from this universe.  One that doesn't really interfere that much, but does want the sentient beings to treat each other right.  And there may be several other sentient beings out there which we might never encounter because space is fucking huge.

(August 25, 2015 at 6:30 pm)Divinity Wrote:

(August 25, 2015 at 6:17 pm)abaris Wrote: Probably not the most appropriate place to ask, but what kind of god?

I believe in a god that is incomprehensible to the human mind.  one not bound to the laws of our universe, because he or she did not come from this universe.  One that doesn't really interfere that much, but does want the sentient beings to treat each other right.  And there may be several other sentient beings out there which we might never encounter because space is fucking huge.

If it's incomprehensible to the human mind, how can you believe it exists?

(August 25, 2015 at 6:35 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(August 25, 2015 at 6:30 pm)Divinity Wrote: I believe in a god that is incomprehensible to the human mind.  one not bound to the laws of our universe, because he or she did not come from this universe.  One that doesn't really interfere that much, but does want the sentient beings to treat each other right.  And there may be several other sentient beings out there which we might never encounter because space is fucking huge.

If it's incomprehensible to the human mind, how can you believe it exists?

And how can you know what it's like and what it wants?

(August 25, 2015 at 6:30 pm)Divinity Wrote: I believe in a god that is incomprehensible to the human mind.  one not bound to the laws of our universe, because he or she did not come from this universe.  One that doesn't really interfere that much, but does want the sentient beings to treat each other right.  And there may be several other sentient beings out there which we might never encounter because space is fucking huge.

That's pretty much what I thought for the largest part of my life. A totally neutral entity making the universe tick. But following my own logic I didn't see any reason to believe in a neutral entity, since it wouldn't appreciate our worship anyway. Which is only appropriate for any being deserving of the title of god.