(November 14, 2015 at 1:24 pm)robvalue Wrote: Drich appears to follow Calvinism, as far as I can tell. Even among the head-exploding options that Christianity offers, I find this the most extreme and utterly depraved.

I doubt that. He seems to be too "universalist" to be a Calvinist,

He believes in no free will, and pre-destination for heaven or hell. Even if he wouldn't call it Calvinism, it seems to fit pretty well.

there are unitarian universalists which of all religious beliefs i respect that one the most from what i know about them i dont think universalists are christians they believe jesus was just a man and not divine dont believe in trinity theory and there are many ways to experience God not just through 1 religion which is manmade from what i know so far they are more reasonable than most religions but hes prob a very dogmatic calvinist

are you a calvinist drich or are the calvinists a cult ? if they are teaching corrupted doctrine then they are a cult call it what it is . christians try and practice inclusiveness when the bible teaches exclusiveness and destroying your enemies which the new testament is loving your enemies which is contradictory whether you want to admit it or not destroy and forgive are opposites  you apologists have to work hard but you should question it all if its true itll be shown to be true .

(November 14, 2015 at 1:45 pm)robvalue Wrote: He believes in no free will, and pre-destination for heaven or hell. Even if he wouldn't call it Calvinism, it seems to fit pretty well.

do he doesnt believe in salvation through faith if he believes in predestination what denominations believe in predesitination not salvation through faith in jesus . is that even christian to believe in predestination . maybe drich is a cult  lol

A Calvinist probably wouldn't interpret Romans 1 and 2 the way he does. Drich seems to be saying that you don't necessarily need to know Jesus for salvation. As long as you live by the law in one's heart. At least that's the implication of his interpretation.

But who knows ...

Drich would espouse whatever sounds to him at the moment like it would make Jesus cock sucking idiots like him not sound so idiotic for being Jesus cock sucking idiots.

If it doesn't convince anyone else, he would adapt a didactic tone so he can convince himself it doesn't sound idiotic.

In regards to salvation, if we have no free will, the criteria is entirely pointless. God has already chosen everything we will do, and this decides whether or not we will meet whatever criteria he makes up. God is just finding ways to justify to himself torturing sentient beings for carrying out actions he programmed them with.

The best interpretation here is that God is actually not aware that we are sentient. That's the only thing that could excuse such behaviour.

If God hasn't programmed us, but we don't have free will, that just leaves us with some form of behaviour based on random influences that even God can't predict. Even then, we're not to blame for our actions because we have no say in them.

Drich has clearly stated he doesn't believe God gave us free will, but he may try to deny the logical conclusions as stated above.

(November 14, 2015 at 7:04 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: When I read this reply I can clearly see that you are ignoring the facts that i have laid out.

Me not answering you the way you want or expect me to is not ignoring the facts. It is me trying to get you to think outside your little box of christianity. If anything the contrast between what I am describing and what you are expecting should tell you how far off you really are.

Quote:  You are making excuses for you faith (a sure sign of an abusive relationship). [

Can you cite an example if not, then know that is a sure sign of ad hom attack.

Quote: If you cant understand why some people might hate christianity or at least have a negative view of it then why should they try to understand christianity.

Maybe to move past blind bigotry and hate. Fear of the unknown only produces anger and hate. You all sound like a bunch a hatemongers trying to sell each other on sterotypes of what you fail to even marginally understand.
How is that any different than blindly accusing Asian neighbors of eating their cat when he goes missing? then rallying others to attack/accuse them as well only based on a sterotype?

Quote:  From the atheist point of view we don't blame a god for the misbehavior of its followers (your pcycopath example).  We go right to reality and blame the real people that did/do the things that cause many to turn away.

that's a lie.. Do you remember just telling me "Making excuses for your faith is a sure sign of abuse?" If my 'faith' is only based on a directly relationship with God, then that would make God my abuser. Which means you are accusing God. not his followers.
(Another reason you should learn about basic christianity/So you don't look so foolish trying to argue points you again don't seem to understand.

Quote:It is the arrogant, uncompromising, and intollerent  nature of the christian that most often prompts the "hate" that you are trying to combat.

Again can you cite a specific example?
Or this is just generalized arrogance, hate and intollerance you feel justified in spreading because of what your understanding of christianity affords you to feel justified in spreading.

Quote:When i was young i was very much on board with repenting and loving Jesus.  You know what turned me away?  The horrible actions of my (at the time) fellow christians to others and to me.  They had a god and still had little to no morals. (having this god does not always = having morals....again.)
Fix that log your eye first before trying to make me "understand" the speck of christianity in my eye.
I know you wont.

again can you cite an example? or are you just leveling out charges that i can't possible fill because they do not pertain to anything I have said or done here, and when I don't/can't follow your 'instruction' you can fill yourself with selfrighteousness (Ironically the same self righteousness you say you hate about christianity) and claim a victory??

Yeah, If my whole reason for being was to expose the self righteousness and intolerance of the church, by using these very same tools, I too would not want to know anything that would make my job harder.

(November 14, 2015 at 12:37 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: so is catholocism also incorrect are you talking about christianity before the catholic church ?

This post was the reason i went back to chapter 3.
As Paul says in rom 3:9-18
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
No one is right Their words are meaningless their efforts are worthless that all are guilty of sin. Paull quoted King David in the Psalms, and David was talking about the most highly regaurded religious people of his day. Paul took that passage and applied to everyone today.

Our religions do not save us in any way shape or form. On Jesus can do that and it is done on a person by person basis. Based on our exposure to God's word and our ability to comprehend and put it all into practice. (Based on the parable of the talents.)

So no The R/C Church is not 'right', but neither is ANYONE else. But at the same time Christ will judge a great number in that church as well as ALL Other Jesus Christ centered churches (as well as 'other religions) as being 'Christian.' Because being "Christian" (In any way that truly matters) has nothing to do with the titles we give our self but what Jesus Himself will judge about us and what he has given us to be faithful to and if we were faithful to what we were given.

Quote:  i think alll religious people should be learning about the history of their religion and be true to the doctrine .

But, that's the thing Romans is telling us. Their is no 'doctrine' that will save us. It is only through a personal relationship with Christ, by which we honor what he gives us over to understand. We will see that Christ Himself boils everything down to 2 commands. Love God with all that you are. Love your neighbor as yourself. this is the base line Jesus is looking for.

Quote:westboro baptist church hurray they are practicing their doctrine and i wish all religion were so honest .

what is most do then what?

Quote: do you think all denominations are wrong or do you believe one christian denom in right ?

No, none are 'right.' Never is the bible is it said we are saved by this doctrine or that one (speaking of specific denominational doctrine) Meaning we are not saved by Religion. Only through christ. Which mean only Through the Judgement of Jesus Christ will we be awarded the 'title' Saved, Born again and or Christian. The various churches sell these titles, but has no right to do so. Only Jesus can give us these titles, so that no man can boast of what he believes or has done to earn his way into heaven.

I believe Many who think themselves saved are not, and many who don't think that way are, and lots of people who never heard of Christ will also be saved. Because again, Salvation is a work/judgement of Christ and not of a religious establishment or work./We do not get to decide who is and is not saved. That is between the individual and Jesus.

So what role does the church have? It is the best chance we have to learning what it is God wants from us. It is a set of training wheels that keeps us up right and headed in the right direction.

Quote:where do you get that idea that christians do not believe humans go to hell for eternity christians absolutely DO !!!! lol humans live for eternity

The bible/Jesus teaches that. If you honestly look at what the bible actually says/putting man's doctrine down.
It never says we will burn forever in Hell. It only ever says Hell is forever and that Satan is destined to burn forever. Jesus specifically tells us that Hell is where the soul is sent to die. "Fear not the one whocan destroy the body, but the God who can destroy the body and soul in Hell."
Not to mention every single parable that mentions Hell describes who/what being cast into the fire get burned up by the fire. not burning forever in the fire. Again the bible only teaches that is the fate of Satan.

I BELIEVE Personally that our time in hell will reflect the nature of our sin. Jesus describes varying degrees of punishment (speaking about those who harm children for instance or those who spread lies and rummors in the church being singled our for 'special attention'/Better for them to not have ever been born.

Quote: is what most christians believe or are you saying there are thousands of christians cults about wouldnt every christian denomination be considered a cult if the doctrine deviates from the original but a lot of people believe the catholics is the true original faith and they really are or at least the first organized church ?

Cult is a word that.. Legalistic (people in whim Paul has nothing good to say) people use to describe anything/form of worship not their own. Again the idea they have being they have the only 'right' form of christianity, when in Fact the bible teaches only Jesus decides who is and is not Christian. So it is a meaningless word from a biblical perspective.. All Jesus Christ centered churches have the same pitfalls and oppertunities as all others, it completely depends on what God has given you over to understand and your ability to be faithful to it.

Quote:and also most christians believe in the inerrancy of the bible and believe its completely perfect and protected to even claim that 1% of the bible could possibly be mistranslated is heresy , do you believe the bible is divine

Actually the bible never claims to be inerrant. I am a strong believer of speaking where the bible speaks and remaining silent where it is silent. As far as inerrency it is silent. That said after 20 years of total study and 8/9 years of athiest questions I have yet to find a real error. No all the bible says is we are not allowed to change what is said in it and that we are responsible for all that it says, or rather all that we can understand of it.

Quote:since it has the Word in it and the Word has always existed and was always with bible god so is it apart of him some do think that do you think the Word which is in the bible is a divine thing apart of God ?

You are quoting John 1:1
If you keep reading John has identified "The word" as "The word Made Flesh." Meaning Jesus. Calling Jesus "The word of God" means Jesus has the Authority of God in all that He says and does.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

"We" did not start identifying the bible as "The word of God" for several hundred years later.

(November 14, 2015 at 1:24 pm)robvalue Wrote: Drich appears to follow Calvinism, as far as I can tell. Even among the head-exploding options that Christianity offers, I find this the most extreme and utterly depraved.

No I am not a calvinist. Their are 5 points of calvinism/5 points you have to agree with to be labled a calvinist. I only agree with the 2 directly found in scripture.
(perserverance of saints and election.) however I believe not all who are called will answer that call, they believe all who are called have no choice.

And (Once saved always saved.) Except I don't believe that we are saved by our doctrines/what we believe. I believe that is Jesus' call.

So of the 5 points I half way believe in 2 because their are actual scripture that says the same thing.