Too true, it's a point I've been stuck on before.

Even if it made any sort of sense that there really is some "objective morality", then it's of no use because every theist reports it to be something different. So every theist is using their own subjective distortion of this objective morality, and for us atheists, we have billions of people all saying, "No, mine is the real objective morality!". Even a cursory glance over the religious text shows that "moderate" theists do not follow the bulk of what it actually says. Thankfully!

So it's of no practical use, even if it's somehow real. To just look for trends and figure it out for ourselves is again subjective and what we do anyway.

The idea that God wants there to be objective morality, but then programmed us all to have our own different ideas of morality, makes him out to be either incompetent or someone that enjoys the arguments this causes.

This is the problem with making up excuses for why supernatural explanations don't actually account for what we see in reality. It requires assuming weird things about God and making excuses for him, which ends up making him look evil and/or an idiot.

I do understand the desire for there to be a "right answer" about everything, and that the idea that we have to figure out for ourselves what we think is best can be uncomfortable. But our desire for there to be a right answer doesn't mean there is one. Ultimately, God is often like a parent that is looked to in order to be the final arbiter to solve squabbles. But (in my opinion) God is just a reflection of ourselves (hence each theist describes him differently) and we are the arbiters. We have to work together, instead of claiming to have ultimate authority that we are right. If we have good reasons for our morality, then "because a book says so" is irrelevant.

Respect to Deidre for admitting that it's ultimately subjective!

(January 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm)Irrational Wrote: If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

Irrational, morality is not necessarily from God, in as He dictates rules He made up for people to live by. In actuality morality is determined because who God is. God says we are to be holy as He is holy, this means we are to live our lives by who God is. God says we are to separate ourselves from the world, He means we are to avoid what the world believes, that morality is subjective and we can live as we see fit. This is why God gave us His word so that we could come to belief in Him and search out who He is in a relationship with Him through Christ. This is a simple way to explain what Christians understand or at least most of us, but to go into it deeply would mean a Bible study which most here would ignore.

GC

According to the Bible no act is every always "good" or always "bad". What is always "bad" is to disobey what you have been told to do. For instance, every once in a while God gets a bug up his butt and goes on a major killing spree. There are some biblical stories where the minions showed mercy, which should be considered "good". God got pissed and punished them because they didn't kill everyone as he had told them to do.

(January 5, 2016 at 11:31 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 11:22 pm)Irrational Wrote: So, according to you, God's morality is real but normally inaccessible. How is this practically different from God's morality not being real and morality instead being fully determined by our viewpoints?

I don't believe subjective morality or objective morality can have any reality without God's existence, so I won't answer it the way you want.

I will say the difference in between being guided by a Guide and following your own opinions and perceptions, is so vastly different. One sees the truth and is guided by it, while the other is far away from the light, looking at it from a distance, making judgments with ignorance, mixing his perception of light with his desires, creating his own sense of beauty of self, without much thought of it's ugly aspects, thereby corrupting it. One is the way that leads to drink of peace and satisfies the thirst, while the latter, without a guide, leaves one thirsty, not knowing how the true river tastes like.

There is no comparison in following one's desires then being guided upon the path through the light of the Guide.

And mixing truth with falsehood, good with evil, is much different then purely following the light, and purifying oneself from all evils.

Ok, would you be one of those who have access to the Guide by any chance?

(January 6, 2016 at 1:58 am)Godschild Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm)Irrational Wrote: If the source of morality is from God, then how can we directly and comprehensively study it so that we can know all about what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

Irrational, morality is not necessarily from God, in as He dictates rules He made up for people to live by. In actuality morality is determined because who God is. God says we are to be holy as He is holy, this means we are to live our lives by who God is. God says we are to separate ourselves from the world, He means we are to avoid what the world believes, that morality is subjective and we can live as we see fit. This is why God gave us His word so that we could come to belief in Him and search out who He is in a relationship with Him through Christ. This is a simple way to explain what Christians understand or at least most of us, but to go into it deeply would mean a Bible study which most here would ignore.

GC

Yes, you believe morality is rooted in his nature. But do you have a clear, less vague, answer to my OP question?

The Bible, by the way, surely does not tell you everything you need to know about God's morality.

The bible and Quran reflected what passed for morality at the time.

They no longer reflect our morality hardly at all, which is why moderates generally present God as being completely different to the character in the books, to the point where the books are irrelevant.

Take some responsibility and just own your own morality, rather than say "It's what I've been told to do." Have some confidence that you know enough about the world to decide for yourself what is right or wrong, instead of highlighting the tiny amount of an old book which lines up with how you want to behave anyway and calling it divinely inspired morality.

Well, for me as an atheist my source of morality is by being moral I know it will help to annoy the silly religious wackos!! what more moral guidance do you need than to know how much you can annoy a holy joe by being moral?

I know right?

It must drive them crazy to see unholy atheist scum not running around murdering people like their pastor promised they do

PS: Here's a question for the (religious) theists. If you didn't think there was any afterlife, would you still care what god's idea of morality is? Or would you just decide what to do yourself?

(January 6, 2016 at 8:11 am)Irrational Wrote: Ok, would you be one of those who have access to the Guide by any chance?

Nope.

(January 6, 2016 at 10:40 am)sergeantpunch Wrote: Well, for me as an atheist my source of morality is by being moral I know it will help to annoy the silly religious wackos!! what more moral guidance do you need than to know how much you can annoy a holy joe by being moral?

Poe boy, you're all mixed up.  How are you supposed to know how to 'act' moral if you're a godless scum?  By shutting god out from our hearts, all we have left is raw carnal desires.  Luckily we still have access to the law of the land to keep our asses out of jail.  Otherwise I'd be fucking children, killing theists and eating their children.  Stupid law.