(February 26, 2016 at 11:59 am)Drich Wrote: [quote pid='1212492' dateline='1456425308']
but that's the thing all of you seem to always get wrong. A/S/K is unique to Christianity. All other religions has their deity funnel instruction through prophets or at the very least priests. In biblical Christianity God wants to deal directly with you/no middle man. Their is a vast difference between hearing the words of a prophet and dealing directly with God the Holy Spirit yourself.

[/quote]
I don't understand your point. In Christianity there have been numerous prophets and no one is in contact with any god now.

(February 22, 2016 at 2:54 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Drich,

You have already lost this debate.

(February 17, 2016 at 9:55 am)Drich Wrote: yes.

Again Righteousness is not assigned by evaluating action and judging it good or bad. It is following the command of God.

(January 27, 2016 at 11:45 am)Drich Wrote: Now that said, without any absolute standards, what makes any of you think that your current acceptance of pop morality as being 'the good and right thing' makes you any different than those who have accepted the pop morality of their time and or culture? Meaning if you have no absolutes standards in your life (like the bible,) and if you were born into Hitler's Germany, under North Korean rule or maybe under an ISIS state, and just like you do now, you blindly follow and do not challenge pop morality of your culture, how then would you find your way back to what you now consider to be 'moral'?

God's will changes over time... at least I assume as much.  Or is God still cool with owning rape slaves?  Does he still require ritualistic animal sacrifice?

No.  So how, then, is his morality absolute?

(February 26, 2016 at 2:08 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 26, 2016 at 11:59 am)Drich Wrote: [quote pid='1212492' dateline='1456425308']
but that's the thing all of you seem to always get wrong. A/S/K is unique to Christianity. All other religions has their deity funnel instruction through prophets or at the very least priests. In biblical Christianity God wants to deal directly with you/no middle man. Their is a vast difference between hearing the words of a prophet and dealing directly with God the Holy Spirit yourself.

I don't understand your point. In Christianity there have been numerous prophets and no one is in contact with any god now.
[/quote]

Actually their was only John the Baptist and he died before Christ did.

In Jesus told the disciples that He has to leave so the Father would Send the Holy Spirit (God) to interact with all of directly. So He left.. Acts two Marks the 'out pouring of the Holy Spirit.' From that point on God dealt with people on a one on one basis. No prophets! We did have Apostles, but that was only to set up the church. (Remember we are talking biblical Christianity not church tradition.)

(February 26, 2016 at 2:09 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(February 22, 2016 at 2:54 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Drich,

You have already lost this debate.




God's will changes over time... at least I assume as much.  Or is God still cool with owning rape slaves?  Does he still require ritualistic animal sacrifice?

No.  So how, then, is his morality absolute?

Book chapter and verse please...

If you took the time to look things up the 'rape of slaves' is an over exaggeration of a command God told one of the 12 tribes of Israel to go out and Kill their ememies and take their 'virgins' and marry them.

So the 'rape of slaves' was never a command, just another atheist strawman.

and if you are an OT Jew more specifically a levite Priest He does indeed require animal sacrifice.

Again, nothing has Changed.

(February 27, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Drich Wrote: I don't understand your point. In Christianity there have been numerous prophets and no one is in contact with any god now.

Actually their was only John the Baptist and he died before Christ did.[/quote]
What about all those other prophets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Christianity

Quote:In Jesus told the disciples that He has to leave so the Father would Send the Holy Spirit (God) to interact with all of directly. So He left.. Acts two Marks the 'out pouring of the Holy Spirit.' From that point on God dealt with people on a one on one basis. No prophets! We did have Apostles, but that was only to set up the church. (Remember we are talking biblical Christianity not church tradition.)

Doing a piss poor job isn't he! not having one verifiable communication with anyone for thousands of years.


.

(February 27, 2016 at 12:25 pm)Drich Wrote: Book chapter and verse please...

If you took the time to look things up the 'rape of slaves' is an over exaggeration of a command God told one of the 12 tribes of Israel to go out and Kill their ememies and take their 'virgins' and marry them.

So the 'rape of slaves' was never a command, just another atheist strawman.

and if you are an OT Jew more specifically a levite Priest He does indeed require animal sacrifice.

Again, nothing has Changed.

Imagine that you're a 12 year old girl and your entire family was brutally murdered by raiders. Now one of these men claims you as his wife.

Yeah, sounds consensual to me.

Think of the 12 year old girl in a painfully twisted analogy in which she is happy instead. Tadah! Problem solved.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote: We use Ask Seek Knock everyday of our lives. The parable from which this principle is first taught shows how we use this method in obtaining trivial things. Because the only thing required is the humility needed to see one's self in need.

I understand what you are trying to say, in that you want to try and filter everything through a 'science' filter. Let me ask you, would you 'filter' turn by turn direction through the scientific method or what if someone gave you a treasure map, and they showed you what they were able to bring back from following the map themselves? again would you try and filter the map through 'science' to first validate it? or would you simply follow the directions to find out if it was correct?
A/S/K are directions not a theory that can be tested by the scientific method.

(February 25, 2016 at 2:35 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I don't actually try to filter every daily decision through the scientific method.  Common sense, critical thinking, and experience are enough for most every day decisions.  I don't ask for a peer reviewed study before crossing a bridge or eating a piece of meat.  No one does.   I rely on common sense. Most bridges stay up the vast majority of the time.  Very little contaminated meat is sold in this county.  

Other questions don't merit the time and effort to solve them.  The brand of deodorant I use is reasonably priced and works.  The may be a better working, better priced alternative,  but finding it isn't worth my time.[/hide]

A/S/K is not a method I use.  Your treasure map analogy is silly. If someone gave me a treasure map it would be a novel experience. Has anyone ever given you or anyone you know a treasure map?  It's very oddness would suggest further investigation was needed.  I'd have to ask if they'd already brought back all of the treasure,  and if not, why they were telling me instead of getting all of it themselves.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote: What's silly is your selective blindness. I also gave the example of turn by turn directions. Ever use the GPS feature on your phone? Ever been taken somewhere other than your intended destination by the GPS? Are aware that it happens? What was/would be your response if you put in an unfamiliar address, and where the GPS lead you, was not where you wanted to be?

Would you just sit there and wait for something to happen, or would you maybe Ask, someone for Help/Directions, what if their was no one around, again would you just sit there waiting for someone to come along or would you seek someone out who could help you? what if they could not help? would you give up and go home or would you Seek someone else out???

Oh! Snap!! don't look now but here you go A/S/K-ing/doing something you Never do, and not to mention if the GPS takes you to your destination right off or the second set of instruction gets you to your final destination, You still didn't use the scientific method to vet your path, you simply followed directions. Directions like the ones found in Luke 11 (which has been my argument from the beginning that makes the whole first 1/2 of you above quote moot, as you agree with me.)

Nonsense, of course I ask for direction to get to places and for how to do thing, and about what other people know.  What I do not do, is A/S/K which is a very different kind of asking than asking for directions.  If there were a real door on which I was supposed to knock, in order to meet an actual demonstrable person, A/S/K would be reasonable directions.  But that isn't the case is it?  You can't demonstrate the existence of god directly or indirectly.  And when people knock of your metaphorical door (read non-existent), you complain that they must not have asked sincerely enough.  It's as if I want to get to the lost city of Atlantus and the directions are "welcome Atlantus into your heart and you will find it there."  Well, that particular kind of directions, I don't waste time following.  I see two possible results:  failure to find Atlantus in which case the directions would be look harder; or worse yet, think I really have found Atlantus in my mind.  The later option wouldn't make Atlantus real, or even if there is a real Atlantus, the I picture in my mind real.  The directions are empty.
  

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote: You guys are so narrow minded it is like trying to speak to autistic children. If a word as imprinted you with a singular meaning, or Lord help us if you can visualize or manifest only one definition to a word because you have only seen it used in a movie or book only the one way, it's like you have been given permission to go full retard defending your narrow definition. Your minds lock onto your one singular aspect, and you ignore any deeper meaning, because you think you have a complete understanding of that word, and mock those who do not follow your narrow minded definition. What's worse you all don't seem to understand mocking me, for the simplicity of an illustration does not help you. It makes you look like a moron when I take that very simple illustration you have mocked and give you a much deeper meaning than what you yourself was able to derive. What's even worse for you is I am able to take said illustration's simple meaning and show you how it is indeed been already applied into your life.

For instance, the first thing we must address is the full on retard definition of a treasure map and break it down and actually describe what a treasure map is in up dated terms because it is very apparent your mind will not allow you the flexibility to use all the different clues or illustrations I originally presented in my initial argument to give yourself an accurate picture of what is being discussed.

So the very first thing a treasure map is.. is obviously a map. A map detailing the surroundings of a end goal or reward. The next thing a treasure map does is give you a common or easily accessible start point. One that is easy to find, and quickly relateable. then It gives Turn by Turn instructions Instructions to help one find their end goal or Reward.

In essence a treasure map is nothing more than a simple set of instructions giving one a place to start, turn by turn instructions, it can also include landmarks or mile markers to help you see that you are making progress in the right direction with an ultimate reward or sought after pay out at the end.

You missed the point entirely.  I decide whether to follow directions based upon the reasonableness of the directions.  A pirate treasure map is a prime example of the sort of directions rational people do not follow without asking some penetrating questions first. In the case of pirate treasure, a hell of a lot of questions.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote: From that general description here are some examples of what a modern treasure map may look like:
A retirement plan, A career plan or path, Or as I said in my Last post Turn by Turn instructions from a GPS, or in the case of salvation A/S/K. Why didn't/couldn't you see these things as treasure maps? Because you only visualize Pirate treasure as being 'treasure.' when in fact there are 1/2 a dozen meanings to that word treasure. Only one or two agree with what you identify/Have locked onto and ignored all else.  This is why/how common sense fails people like you. You lock on to a singular understanding of something and take your base understanding as the only way a given subject can be viewed and when someone trys to show you a different angle it violates what you feel is common sense.

Oh be honest, if someone says "treasure map" what springs to mind is a map leading to buried treasure.  And that is a great example of why we don't just follow directions blindly.  There a qualitative difference in the quality of, goals of, and likelihood of success of following different types of direction.  GPS directions occasionally fail (I like to have real maps along too) but in the vast majority of cases they work, as do road maps.  A career path or plan is a much iffier proposition.  Not everyone who follows the plan can or will reach the destination.  And the economic world changes so much year to year that that the plan may need substantial modification along the way, and the career in question may disappear altogether.  Add to that that career paths involved substantial investment of time and money, and rational people evaluate them rather more closely than how to get to the airport.  Retirement plans are similarly not as straight forward as directions to get to a physical location.  And sellers of retirement advice often have ulterior motives. Think before you sign on to a retirement plan.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 25, 2016 at 2:35 pm)Jenny A Wrote: And unlike someone who can show me the treasure they brought back, you can't  show me god, or even any credible evidence that you found him. Or given your description of him, that he'd be a treasure if I found him. 

Again miss narrow mind it completely depends on the 'treasure' found. Pirate treasure can be held, but what if your treasure is Love? Can you hold love? can someone else truly examine what you feel? Again treasure does not have to be tangible.

What if the treasure is Love?  Love with a capital L?  There is no such thing in any findable form.  Love is an emotion.  It is a connection between two people.  It is an abstract noun.  What it is not is something you find.  Direction to find a lover, or someone who will love you, or on how to be lovable, or even how to love your enemies, might be a reasonable goal, but finding Love is not.  It's an description of phenomenon.  Directions to find it would be a silly as A/S/K.  

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:I do follow directions, particularly if they appear safe and it's easy to see if they work. Just recently, I learned to make Turkish coffee by googling it.  But, I've drunk Turkish coffee before,  and whether the directions worked was easy to ascertain.   It did, by the way, and we've been having it about every third morning ever since. It makes for a luxurious quarter hour before my sweetie heads off to work.  I follow much more onerous directions if I see real need and results.  Our retirement account is an example of such results. 

SMH...
So you are willing to follow complex and burdensome instructions for coffee, and turn your nose at Ask, Seek, Knock for the Holy Spirit.. Something I Have Conclusively shown you have done in your life, so much so you are oblivious to it as it is second nature.

Given the total disdain Christ had for the Hypocrites of the temple for "Trying to remove the speck out of someone else eye while having a plank of wood sticking out of their own" If and or when you stand in judgement before Him how will you possible explain this? That burdensome coffee was worth the effort, yet you applying a second nature method to finding God was too much?

Turkish coffee takes about ten minutes-- not exactly burdensome.  I follow them because I like Turkish coffee and the directions are clear and likely.  If the first directions I found were: first really really want coffee; second say a prayer;  third, wait for coffee to be delivered, I'd find better directions.  Looking for god your way sounds a lot like this method of coffee making, except that no coffee is actually ever contemplated only the feeling that you have coffee.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:But there are directions my common sense and natural  skepticism tell me are dangerous to follow.  Like your hypothetical treasure map, they are often get rich with little or no effort  schemes.  Or like crystals to adjust my aura,  or your god scheme,  the results are not quantifiable.  If someone adds, that it won't work unless you really want  it to,  all the skeptic buzzers go off. 

wow what presumption.. In order for your 'common sense' to be accurate you must boast knowledge over the defining principles over each of those 'schemes.' If you don't have knowledge or mastery over those principles and yet insist they are invalid or Valid you are not using common sense to make your determination.

You are well wishing, you are fooling yourself into thinking one thing or another, based on what everyone else thinks. This make you a lemming. Do you know what lemmings are?

Really?  Show me the evidence behind my aura, or god for that matter.  There are many for Christians than atheists, and the atheists are those who ask questions not those who don't.  Here you are talking to the 1-4% minority in this country suggesting that by not being in the majority I'm a lemming.  Irony, oh the irony.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:And before you go off on some ridiculous tangent about needing to want to do something like, playing the piano, quiting smoking or, exercising more, let me note that that has to do with putting in the effort to follow the directions and not if the directions describe anything real. I've taught myself to paint. And yes had to want to learn and practice.  But the results are demonastratable. People can demonstrate piano playing, lack of smoking, exercise, and painting,  see below.  Your god, like my aura remains undemonstrable.  

..So what in your mind makes you think God or rather the Spiritual gifts are not demonstrable? Granted they are focused on the individual, but never the less none less real. Let's say for a moment you were never good in school. matter of fact you could not read. Yet some how years later you found God (still could not read) then after a period of A/S/K-ing God turns on a switch and with in a few short years you go from being nearly illiterate to being given the keys to wisdom so far beyond your scope it literally scares you. That All of your questions about God are answered, not only that you can answer everyone elses. questions and can over turn their objections. On things like evolution verses creation, the Ark, The exodus, a whole pantheon of supposed logical fallacies, and on and on and on. With absolutly no outside influences or formal training.

Then lets say you body circumes to several "death sentence diseases.' AIDS, Cancer, Burst Appendix etc... With no medical treatment what so ever you recover each and every time.

Next let pile on a field trip to Hell. where you get to experience your final judgement, and the fire of hell and what it really means to 'gnash your teeth.'

After that God drops 25K in the way of a loan from a perfect stranger you met in passing once. To start your own business, then you do nothing but your simple job, and you watch it explode around you, and now you not only do commerce on a national scale but an international one as well. after that God puts you and your business in building/location so far out of your scope (best part of town with greater curb appeal and equipment than all of your competitors for less than what anyone else would pay for 1/4 of the space in the wrong part of town.) And On and On Including patents, trucks equipment just anything and everything we could ever need, just when we need it in just the right amount.

Keeping in mind you know who you really are, and are just literally on a ride you have been put on. Not because you deserve or earned anything, but because God saw fit to give it to you.

Talk to me when you have an example rather than a "what if."  And frankly, most of the ideas you have above are rather unbiblical.  Literal riches or personal success is not what Jesus promised.  And good people like Job, got the shaft.  I don't see how good luck would prove the existence of god, or demonstrate him in anyway, especially as many who obviously believe aren't doing so well.

And I've read your explanations for the Ark and creation, and you may think you can explain them, but they any thinking person rolling of the floor laughing. If that's the demonstration, than it's evidence against rather than for god.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote: Again. None of these things God did for me was meant to be proof for you, or really anyone close to me. They were meant for me and me alone. This is my treasure/Love. I experienced all of this and know all of it to be real. the thing is. A/S/K was not directed just at me, but an open invitation to all. Everyone was invited to experience their own version of what I experienced. What God has planned for each of us is meant to mean little to nothing to anyone else, but to us personally it will create and maintain an unbreakable bond.

It is in fact the kind of evidence I reject with regard to alien abductions, NDE's and various conspiracy theories.  You believe to to be real, but you don't know it.  Not on that evidence you don't.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Drich Wrote:

Quote:Frankly, the aura, and god are of a muchness. And while they factually contradict one another both, as well as the truth of the Koran or the Book of Mormon, can be found the same way.  A/S/K is an invitation to invent your own facts,  not a method for finding the truth.  And once they have found such stuff, I don't  see people's lives improving,  but I do see them ignoring or avoiding verifiable facts,  such as the absence of evidence for a world wide flood, which would exist, had it happened. 

Humbleness consists of questioning what you can do and know, not in thinking about superior being loves you and that you know all about that being. 

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but that's the thing all of you seem to always get wrong. A/S/K is unique to Christianity. All other religions has their deity funnel instruction through prophets or at the very least priests. In biblical Christianity God wants to deal directly with you/no middle man. Their is a vast difference between hearing the words of a prophet and dealing directly with God the Holy Spirit yourself.

That's where you are wrong.  Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, all have priests and prophets and all think they are in direct contact with god.  Your Christianity isn't anything special. The are all equally and decidedly undemonstrative, and all believed absolutely on the basis of the kind of evidence you suggest.

If Drich is the chosen one (amazing powers of recovery, grand sums of money out of nowhere, amazing wisdom (l-o-fucking-l)), then I volunteer to be the captain on team Satan.

Still busy pushing people away from christ, Drich?  GJ, carry on.  Your efforts are appreciated.