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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:02 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 10:48 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:06 pm)Losty Wrote: Do you think a parent should allow his child to suffer and be murdered to stop said parent from eternally torturing everyone ever? Do you think that's good parenting?
You might think the teaching is that people may choose to disobey God and they are due punishment because of it and that Jesus sacrifice was to help people avoid the punishment.
You might think that an almighty God killing his own son to save his own creations from his own self is not a logical teaching.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:10 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 10:47 pm)Chad32 Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:30 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Chad32,
You might consider that in the story he was expressing his humanity by what he said as evidence he was going through what a human may go through in such circumstances, not wanting to suffer but willing to do what was necessary for the sake of what God wanted for the benefit of mankind.
Yes, it is in Human nature to not want to be killed horribly. It's pretty gross and sad that blood and suffering is needed to put this god in a good enough mood to not inflict pain on the entirety of humanity, but I guess that's what happens when people in charge have no checks and balances.
Chad32,
It may be thought that it may be compared to the end of a war in which many people were sacrificed and that the people that survived were glad it's over but also feeling sorry about the loss of life.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:11 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2016 at 11:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Not sorry enough to save just one of them, though..according to GC. In any case, it;s one of those things that shows us where religious morality and ethics fail completely - even by the standards of the people who hold them. Where the good™ is turned..seemingly, completely on it's head for one mighty exemption. That the purpose of the exemption is self serving and inane, itself, makes it worse...it might be said.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:15 pm
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:22 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2016 at 11:35 pm by Simon Moon.)
(June 15, 2016 at 10:57 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: But why couldn't your god negate the danger without the sacrifice?
Why not just forgive humanity without torturing his son (which is also himself)?
Was he unable to do so?
Simon Moon,
You might think of it as like a war in which people must die for the sake of everyone else or evil prevails.
False analogy.
No actor in the war scenario has magical abilities to stop the war.
In your god scenario, we are in your god's universe, with rules that he created.
Why couldn't he make the rules such that, there was no need for a blood sacrifice? Why couldn't he just forgive humanity?
I was once in a hit and run accident where I sustained some minor injuries and a totaled car. I have long ago forgiven the other driver. I did not need his apology, financial compensation, or even his punishment by the legal system. I just forgave him.
And let me add, that I truly don't require his offspring to apologize, or compensate me financially, or be legally punished for something their father was guilty of. Wouldn't you consider that immoral?
Why am I able to do something that god seems unable to?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:28 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 10:56 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:48 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: You might think the teaching is that people may choose to disobey God and they are due punishment because of it and that Jesus sacrifice was to help people avoid the punishment.
And you don't see any problem with this?
ApeNotKillApe,
A comparison, one man fought war against evil, sacrificed himself in the war, gained victory, gave people the opportunity to share in that victory, some people wanted to continue to fight against good and died eventually.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:35 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2016 at 11:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why would I want to share that "victory", and what's good about it anyway?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:39 pm
(This post was last modified: June 15, 2016 at 11:41 pm by ApeNotKillApe.)
(June 15, 2016 at 11:28 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:56 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: And you don't see any problem with this?
ApeNotKillApe,
A comparison, one man fought war against evil, sacrificed himself in the war, gained victory, gave people the opportunity to share in that victory, some people wanted to continue to fight against good and died eventually.
The comparison only works if the man was the only person involved in the war and fought it from both sides.
God accused humankind of a crime, dictated the punishment for said crime, then sacrificed himself to himself in order to give humankind a method of appeal for the crime that he himself made up.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:47 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 11:28 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:56 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: And you don't see any problem with this?
ApeNotKillApe,
A comparison, one man fought war against evil, sacrificed himself in the war, gained victory, gave people the opportunity to share in that victory, some people wanted to continue to fight against good and died eventually.
You see here is the problem
1. You save jesus hurray you have morals and you have empathy for your fellow human beings
2. You sit back and watch a man get tortured then nailed to a bit of wood. you knowingly let it happen you are guilt wish you could do something.
There is a moral dilemma if you didn't pick option 2 you have the power to save your fellow human being
and you chose not to out of fear or out of the fact you gain something from it.
If i had the ability to save jesus i would i really would because i don't want someone dying for me i didn't ask for it i never wanted it.
Yet people celebrate a guy dying because their sins would get washed away and that is the moral issue here would you or would you not save a guy
that died for your sins and that being said i would save said person because if you don't and you have the power to do so that would
only prove how immoral you are.
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RE: Christians, would you have saved Jesus, if you had he chance?
June 15, 2016 at 11:58 pm
(June 15, 2016 at 11:22 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:57 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Simon Moon,
You might think of it as like a war in which people must die for the sake of everyone else or evil prevails.
False analogy.
No actor in the war scenario has magical abilities to stop the war.
In your god scenario, we are in your god's universe, with rules that he created.
Why couldn't he make the rules such that, there was no need for a blood sacrifice? Why couldn't he just forgive humanity?
I was once in a hit and run accident where I sustained some minor injuries and a totaled car. I have long ago forgiven the other driver. I did not need his apology, financial compensation, or even his punishment by the legal system. I just forgave him.
Why am I able to do something that god seems unable to?
Simon Moon,
Because humans must choose to work to gain life otherwise we'd be like robots with no potential to live. Life would have no meaning.
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