One person I talked to previously claimed they could become an atheist or a theist at will. I didn't believe them. Of course, anyone can say they are. It doesn't mean they actually are.

(October 3, 2016 at 3:54 pm)robvalue Wrote: One person I talked to previously claimed they could become an atheist or a theist at will. I didn't believe them. Of course, anyone can say they are. It doesn't mean they actually are.

I'm the walrus.  Prove me wrong!

In that case, I'm the egg man.

(October 3, 2016 at 2:08 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The point is one can belive or disbelive anything they want...

MAKING BELIEF A CHOICE!

Can you choose to believe in Santa Clause? If you REALLY truly believe, he will bring you Presents on Christmas day.  I promise. The only reason he doesn't come, is because you don't TRULY believe.

He;s just giving you space, to decide for yourself.  Free will and all.  If he left presents than you would be forced to beli....oh...wait, shit......

Are we done here? I guess belief isn't a choice after all.

Not without defining "choice" in a really stupid way, anyway. It's not a free choice that can be made anytime. I can't choose to believe magical Jesus walked the earth. No more than Huggy can choose to disbelieve it. It would take some pretty strong evidence at this point. Evidence which is extremely unlikely to surface in my lifetime, if ever. I shall be punished for this? Fuck off God. Even if I believed, I'd tell Jesus to fuck off. I guess that's not a sin, if sin is just disbelief.

Seriously. Imagine how dangerous it would be! I could decide to truly believe cars don't hurt me. Since many choices are subconscious (perhaps even all), maybe I'd make the choice without realising it and wander into the road thinking I'm immune. There's a good evolutionary reason I'm sure we don't abandon beliefs, or form them, based on a whim and nothing more.

(October 3, 2016 at 11:28 pm)robvalue Wrote: Seriously. Imagine how dangerous it would be! I could decide to truly believe cars don't hurt me. Since many choices are subconscious (perhaps even all), maybe I'd make the choice without realising it and wander into the road thinking I'm immune. There's a good evolutionary reason I'm sure we don't abandon beliefs, or form them, based on a whim and nothing more.

Lol, maybe some of us can or could, but natures cars have long since plastered the misfiring thoughtmonkeys?

That's quite possible, yeah. It would have been weeded out by natural selection most likely. Somehow Huggy slipped the net and can change his beliefs on a dime. The rest of us are stuck requiring some sort of substance for a change in our beliefs.

(October 2, 2016 at 3:05 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: @Rob Value

I actually went to a Christian university for a graduate program in conflict resolution and reconciliation. Now, the main understanding that I gained throughout my studies was that Christianity is based in peace, acceptance, and mutual understanding.  In particular, I-Thou and I-It relationships, conceptions of Martin Buber, were highly emphasized and linked to the peacemaking concepts in our courses.  In a nutshell, in I-Thou relationships, people embrace tolerance, mutual respect, acceptance, and understanding and regard one another as unique ends in themselves, and from a religious perspective, this is because everyone is interconnected to a greater reality of love (God); therefore, establishing I-Thou relationships is a way to put this love or God's love into practice.  On the other hand, in I-It relationships, people treat others as objects to serve their own ends.  Regarding Christianity, I-It relations can cause its practitioners to impose their personal truth and normalcy onto their faith and onto others, which can result in fear, dehumanization, hostility, and disconnection; thus, contradicting the principles of peace, love, humanness, and connection espoused by Christianity.

Now, I have mentioned these ideas for the following reason: would you say that the concept of sin is a product of I-IT relations?  Do you think Christianity would be more effective if its practitioners behaved in an I-Thou manner? Thanks for your time and attention, sir. 


References

Buber, Martin.  I and Thou.  Simon & Schuster: New York, 1970.

I've read your post again more carefully

I agree that sin does indeed sound like I-IT. It is imposing rules on others under assumed authority. It's like a dictatorship, where the leader is unseen. If it was entirely a personal thing, that would be different, but it's almost always used to judge others in my experience.

I think Christianity would certainly be better as in more moral if it used I-Thou more. I don't think it would be as effective regarding surviving as an institution. It's built on fear tactics and indoctrination mainly, as far as I'm concerned. Both are very much I-IT, and are in line with the bible. Any sort of I-Thou reading of the bible requires so much editing that you might as well just forget about being Christian and draw inspiration from certain parts of the bible you find appealing instead.

That's my take!

(October 4, 2016 at 1:31 am)robvalue Wrote: I've read your post again more carefully

I agree that sin does indeed sound like I-IT. It is imposing rules on others under assumed authority. It's like a dictatorship, where the leader is unseen. If it was entirely a personal thing, that would be different, but it's almost always used to judge others in my experience.

I think Christianity would certainly be better as in more moral if it used I-Thou more. I don't think it would be as effective regarding surviving as an institution. It's built on fear tactics and indoctrination mainly, as far as I'm concerned. Both are very much I-IT, and are in line with the bible. Any sort of I-Thou reading of the bible requires so much editing that you might as well just forget about being Christian and draw inspiration from certain parts of the bible you find appealing instead.

That's my take!

Thank you for your candid reply, Robert. From my observations, if people, regardless of how they interpret reality, behaved in a more inquisitive, non-judgmental, tolerant, accepting, and humane way, then perhaps this could help humanity embrace the idea that reality is like a kaleidoscope and thought is our principal vehicle for exploring it.  Hence, we cannot experience the full beauty of this kaleidoscope by taking a particular element and claiming that it encapsulates the entire image; its beauty, uniqueness, and completion comes from gaining an appreciation for and an understanding of the differences inherent with in it.  Thanks again for your reply, Rob. Live long and prosper.