(June 25, 2017 at 6:25 am)Roeki Wrote: Basically the point is the idea of judgement and hell makes zero sense. Why would i put gasoline on my bike and burn it for something it didnt do?. I mean the creator made it, make it again and not let a dozens of bicycles screw themself up. It would be the most moral and intelligent thing to do. But he doesnt do that, so yeah
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Your whole premise is flawed. 

1. God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of good. As Augustine said 1700 years ago: "Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil.'"
2. Giving people free will mean giving them the ability to choose evil.
3. Creating a world of creatures without free will would be pointless. Everything would be deterministic and essentially robotic. No love, no companionship, no meaningful relationships. 
4. God does not send us to hell. Because God is completely both Holy and Just, we cannot be reconciled to him without having something cleanse us of our unholiness. He has provided such a way. If we refuse the free gift, it is us who send ourselves to eternal separation from God.

(June 26, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 6:25 am)Roeki Wrote: Basically the point is the idea of judgement and hell makes zero sense. Why would i put gasoline on my bike and burn it for something it didnt do?. I mean the creator made it, make it again and not let a dozens of bicycles screw themself up. It would be the most moral and intelligent thing to do. But he doesnt do that, so yeah
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Your whole premise is flawed. 

1. God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of good. As Augustine said 1700 years ago: "Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil.'"
2. Giving people free will mean giving them the ability to choose evil.
3. Creating a world of creatures without free will would be pointless. Everything would be deterministic and essentially robotic. No love, no companionship, no meaningful relationships. 
4. God does not send us to hell. Because God is completely both Holy and Just, we cannot be reconciled to him without having something cleanse us of our unholiness. He has provided such a way. If we refuse the free gift, it is us who send ourselves to eternal separation from God.

Your premise is quite flawed as well.

I believe there is a verse that says he does, in fact, create evil. But even without that, he does claim some things he doesn't like is evil. He creates us with the ability to choose to do things he doesn't approve of, and calls those things evil. Even if they're things that are fundamental to our physical and mental health. Whether he personally throws us into hell or not, he's still responsible for that place being there, and for torturing people in fire for eternity, according to mainstream christianity. This is why people compare him to a mob boss that destroys your establishment because you didn't pay him protection money. Or an abusive parent/spouse. Calling him holy or just is a pretty wild claim, given his actions.

(June 25, 2017 at 6:53 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:Sura 67, Page 562, The Quran:
( 2 )   [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

God never lost control; the Quran mentions it clear that this life is nothing but a test.
Even demons were his creation; after all. Satan, too.

Have you ever offered a reply that wasn't a vapid useless Q-tip erm Quran quote?

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(June 26, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 6:25 am)Roeki Wrote: Basically the point is the idea of judgement and hell makes zero sense. Why would i put gasoline on my bike and burn it for something it didnt do?. I mean the creator made it, make it again and not let a dozens of bicycles screw themself up. It would be the most moral and intelligent thing to do. But he doesnt do that, so yeah
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Your whole premise is flawed. 

1. God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of good. As Augustine said 1700 years ago: "Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil.'"
2. Giving people free will mean giving them the ability to choose evil.
3. Creating a world of creatures without free will would be pointless. Everything would be deterministic and essentially robotic. No love, no companionship, no meaningful relationships. 
4. God does not send us to hell. Because God is completely both Holy and Just, we cannot be reconciled to him without having something cleanse us of our unholiness. He has provided such a way. If we refuse the free gift, it is us who send ourselves to eternal separation from God.

1: So god is not all powerful
2: This eliminates all knowing
3: In your world view life is meaningless, this all pointless, Just accept christ and move onto eternity
4: Sure he does, It's even laid out in your book of fables how to get there and all of the other fun eternal damnations.

(June 25, 2017 at 6:53 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

Quote:Sura 67, Page 562, The Quran:
( 2 )   [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

God never lost control; the Quran mentions it clear that this life is nothing but a test.
Even demons were his creation; after all. Satan, too.

No, they were not. Lucifer chose to oppose God, he wasn't created for to be Satan and the demons, I'm supposing you are referring to the fallen angels they made their choice, too.

GC

(June 26, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 3:40 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your whole premise is flawed. 

1. God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of good. As Augustine said 1700 years ago: "Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name 'evil.'"
2. Giving people free will mean giving them the ability to choose evil.
3. Creating a world of creatures without free will would be pointless. Everything would be deterministic and essentially robotic. No love, no companionship, no meaningful relationships. 
4. God does not send us to hell. Because God is completely both Holy and Just, we cannot be reconciled to him without having something cleanse us of our unholiness. He has provided such a way. If we refuse the free gift, it is us who send ourselves to eternal separation from God.

Your premise is quite flawed as well.

I believe there is a verse that says he does, in fact, create evil. But even without that, he does claim some things he doesn't like is evil. He creates us with the ability to choose to do things he doesn't approve of, and calls those things evil. Even if they're things that are fundamental to our physical and mental health. Whether he personally throws us into hell or not, he's still responsible for that place being there, and for torturing people in fire for eternity, according to mainstream christianity. This is why people compare him to a mob boss that destroys your establishment because you didn't pay him protection money. Or an abusive parent/spouse. Calling him holy or just is a pretty wild claim, given his actions.

Yep, the old battered spouse mentality. Or slave mentality. We should absolutely DESPISE a god who created us with minds that are capable of twisting enough to be comfortable with that and not the least bit ashamed.

(June 25, 2017 at 10:42 am)Roeki Wrote: So basically humans are puppets. Or no, pawn in some kind of game. God is the dungeon master, and humans are the chess pieces. Don't see how an all wise god would think that is a good idea, unless he is incredibly bored.

I also had to search up if the islamic God is supposed to be good. He seems to atleast reward good behavior.

Yeah i still dont see how this makes sense? Like to me it just seems he's incredibly immorale if that is the case. I mean if the idea is to create a world for failed models to strive instead of having a world where people get along.

God's creation was designed to have choice so we wouldn't be little robots to play with like some kind of small child would play with it's toys. We were designed to be able to have a loving relationship with Him, if we were only toys why would He have allowed us to know of Him.

GC

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(June 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: And Altas, while I am glad you are a liberal Muslim, please understand that "it's a test" is bad argument Christians and Jews use as well.

In what sense do Jews use the term "test?"

Christians do believe in testing from God but not as a main reason we were created, I would think the Jews of old would believe the same. The testing would be to better our relation ship with Him.

GC

(June 26, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 10:42 am)Roeki Wrote: So basically humans are puppets. Or no, pawn in some kind of game. God is the dungeon master, and humans are the chess pieces. Don't see how an all wise god would think that is a good idea, unless he is incredibly bored.

I also had to search up if the islamic God is supposed to be good. He seems to atleast reward good behavior.

Yeah i still dont see how this makes sense? Like to me it just seems he's incredibly immorale if that is the case. I mean if the idea is to create a world for failed models to strive instead of having a world where people get along.

God's creation was designed to have choice so we wouldn't be little robots to play with like some kind of small child would play with it's toys. We were designed to be able to have a loving relationship with Him, if we were only toys why would He have allowed us to know of Him.

GC

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(June 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Aliza Wrote: In what sense do Jews use the term "test?"

Christians do believe in testing from God but not as a main reason we were created, I would think the Jews of old would believe the same. The testing would be to better our relation ship with Him.

GC

Because he's such a petty, jealous, insecure prick that he wants worship and adoration. Anyone, god or not, with that mentality deserves none of what they seek.

(June 26, 2017 at 6:20 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(June 25, 2017 at 6:53 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: God never lost control; the Quran mentions it clear that this life is nothing but a test.
Even demons were his creation; after all. Satan, too.

Have you ever offered a reply that wasn't a vapid useless Q-tip erm Quran quote?

---

Look here ! Spaghetti; catch !..good boy.

(June 26, 2017 at 6:48 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Godscreated Wrote: God's creation was designed to have choice so we wouldn't be little robots to play with like some kind of small child would play with it's toys. We were designed to be able to have a loving relationship with Him, if we were only toys why would He have allowed us to know of Him.

GC

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Christians do believe in testing from God but not as a main reason we were created, I would think the Jews of old would believe the same. The testing would be to better our relation ship with Him.

GC

Because he's such a petty, jealous, insecure prick that he wants worship and adoration. Anyone, god or not, with that mentality deserves none of what they seek.

 No, because He's a loving god who desires a relationship with us. God insecure that's a laugh, He was living an eternally just fine without us, He created us so we could enjoy Him and those wonderful things He would provide, it's to bad you haven't experienced such a relationship with Him.

GC

You're going the colossal asshole route of telling me it's my fault I didn't have a relationship with your imaginary friend? Fuck off with that shit, you fucking infant. If you hear nothing but silence for 8 straight years when you're most impressionable, at some point you have to wonder how invested this god is in having a relationship with us, and even a child can see through that bullshit when it's completely obvious that they're being fed a lie, no different than Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny. All that tells me is you're psychotic, potentially dangerously so, because you're describing symptoms of numerous disorders you seem to be experiencing. The thing is, when I tell you how to fix that problem, my method will actually produce results. And I'm not going to blame you for why you're in that condition unless you want to act the damn fool even more.

He proudly proclaims to be jealous in the worst way, and forbids the worship of other gods; how much more fucking insecure can you get? It's almost like he's powerless to do away with these other gods, like he's a namby-pamby bitch who can't expand his influence beyond one measly tribe (big surprise that that's where the mythology emerged) or spread the word around the world himself. So insecure he couldn't just let us have our tower and unite and be good and cooperative to each other. So insecure he had to prove a point to one of his other failed creations so he had to butt-fuck Job half to death without a care for Job's feelings on the matter. So insecure he constantly has to test people's faith, like Abraham with Isaac. So insecure he couldn't just leave it at whatever number of plagues he already unleashed on Egypt and had to fuck with Pharaoh's free will so he could do even more. I mean, at some point you have to admit that psychology makes Yahweh a test case for every fucking disorder out there and probably some we don't actually see in normal humans.

'So we could enjoy him and all the wonders of life'. Yeah, like cancer, birth defects, mental disorders, all things he could have flipped a switch and done without. One of the main things I had a problem with when I was being taught this stuff was the lack of equality. How can god love everyone equally if we are all clearly not being treated equally? That is simply an irreconcilable contradiction. If someone is born with a brain incapable of experience life in any meaningful way, and they exist according to his plan, what the fuck was the point of this 'gift'? And I don't know if it was you who brought it up but if you want to claim we weren't created to be robots and needed strife to get the full experience of life, fuck the fuck off with your delusional asshattery. Adam and Eve were living in a paradise, so why put them there if we weren't just supposed to experience nothing but bliss? And the fact that we had to be 'punished' and denied this Eden for being set up in the first place by a combination of god's ineptitude and intentional vindictiveness should slap our consciousnesses so hard it's literally impossible for you not to see that and yet somehow you defy that. You literally have no leg to stand on anywhere.

Not that I care much, but does anything in any old text tell the story from the fallen angels' perspective? Like maybe there was a reason they rebelled against a god they saw as, perhaps, dictatorial and megalomaniacal and unworthy of being beholden to? Funny how if not, that's exactly what you'd expect a tyrant to do, silence the opposition's voice. And just like you'd expect a liar to say "I'm not a liar". Only the claim goes beyond that, to 'god is incapable of lying'. Hilariously transparent.