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If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
#91
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make .
(June 29, 2017 at 12:31 am)Aliza Wrote:

Quote:Christians believe that we believe in the same god, but educated Jews would disagree. The descriptions of our deities are different. 

Jewish tradition is detailed in the Talmud, not the Torah. To understand how Jews practice the religion and interact with the Torah, you'd have to be familiar with the Talmud.

Some parts of the Talmud is the most disgusting piece of filth a person can read. The other parts were written by superstitious twits.
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#92
RE: If God of Abraham is true...
(June 29, 2017 at 12:31 am)Aliza Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 12:06 am)Godscreated Wrote:  The OT shows us that the Jewish people believed they were tested as individuals and as a people. 
 Christians myself included seek to enjoy life but for me life would be less enjoyable without God in it.
 You are right the two have little in common mainly because of tradition, we do believe in the same God and this is why we are put under one umbrella.

GC

Christians believe that we believe in the same god, but educated Jews would disagree. The descriptions of our deities are different. 

Jewish tradition is detailed in the Talmud, not the Torah. To understand how Jews practice the religion and interact with the Torah, you'd have to be familiar with the Talmud.

I was always surprised (but now I am used to) how a person doesn't mind calling himself a Christian while he doesn't take seriously the most crucial teachings of Jesus Christ.

[1] Jesus didn't present any formal ritual to be practiced at certain specific times and/or places. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various rituals (that suit their regions). Therefore, millions in the world, known as Christians, practice these rituals, in groups, at specific times and places with the same joy that Pagans, Muslims and Jews have while they practice their religious rituals.

[2] Jesus didn't approve any rule/commandment to be imposed on men.  But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various well-defined authorities (that also suit their regions) in the name of Jesus (or God). By the way, living the unconditional love towards all others would lose its great meaning if commanded (ordered as in the army) by any authority... even by God. By the way, the unconditional love as taught by Jesus cannot be found in any known religion, including Judaism.

[3] Jesus didn't mention even one thing (or person) to be considered as being sacred or holy. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus approved with time many things as being sacred; besides many persons as being Saints (closer to God than all other men).

In fact, saying "Jesus is perfect in his teachings" is considered as one of the greatest blasphemies against today's Christianity (I was banned from a Christian forum for saying it a couple of times). And at the same time, Christians are supposed seeing Jesus as the Living Son of God, hence a perfect divine being and not just a man. The reason it is a blaspheme is: If Christians are supposed to understand and follow Jesus teachings only (which is not easy at all), the various Churches around the world (starting from Vatican-Rome) will almost lose all the big donations from their Christian believers. Many priests I knew confessed me this hidden truth. It was an excuse for not preaching Jesus sayings in the same way Jesus did.
Answering: What is my point?
https://atheistforums.org/thread-49852.html
Reply
#93
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 29, 2017 at 1:33 pm)KerimF Wrote:
(June 25, 2017 at 11:58 am)Whateverist Wrote: No, humans aren't puppets and God is not real.  Why do you think otherwise?  And if you think the idea of giving God a role in human affairs is as silly as using us as finger puppets for His self amusement .. why do you think he has any role whatsoever?  Are you a deist then?

You are totally right, but I am afraid you missed the conclusion.

Yes, if there is a Will/Power behind our existence, it would be non-sense, if not silly, if it looks using me as a puppet to amuse any other being, on earth or elsewhere.

Also, it would be non-sense if it forced me to exist in this life for no reason.

But actually there is a third point (possibility) which has nothing to do with the previous two.
Could you guess it?

I am afraid one can know it or, at least, imagine it only if he has the chance to be a real free independent person.


Nope, I can't guess what you have in mind.  What do you think?
Reply
#94
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 29, 2017 at 1:12 am)Aliza Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 12:53 am)Godscreated Wrote:  Deities?

GC

Did I use the term wrong? Jews don't recognize the attributes of the trinity god that Christians believe, even if a few attributes did come from Judaism. Looking at the description of the Jewish G-d and the Christian god, they do not appear to be the same entity. Jews do not acknowledge radical changes to the definition of G-d, as the Christians have done, so from a Jewish perspective, we are following different entities.

Sorry I do not see it that way, the OT gives us much information about what the Israelites believed about God. God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Christ are all there. The Jewish people are awaiting Christ's first appearance, they missed the fact that after Christ's resurrection things change in their worship of God. How they missed it I do not know.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
#95
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 29, 2017 at 5:39 pm)KerimF Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 12:31 am)Aliza Wrote: Christians believe that we believe in the same god, but educated Jews would disagree. The descriptions of our deities are different. 

Jewish tradition is detailed in the Talmud, not the Torah. To understand how Jews practice the religion and interact with the Torah, you'd have to be familiar with the Talmud.

I was always surprised (but now I am used to) how a person doesn't mind calling himself a Christian while he doesn't take seriously the most crucial teachings of Jesus Christ.

[1] Jesus didn't present any formal ritual to be practiced at certain specific times and/or places. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various rituals (that suit their regions). Therefore, millions in the world, known as Christians, practice these rituals, in groups, at specific times and places with the same joy that Pagans, Muslims and Jews have while they practice their religious rituals.

[2] Jesus didn't approve any rule/commandment to be imposed on men.  But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various well-defined authorities (that also suit their regions) in the name of Jesus (or God). By the way, living the unconditional love towards all others would lose its great meaning if commanded (ordered as in the army) by any authority... even by God. By the way, the unconditional love as taught by Jesus cannot be found in any known religion, including Judaism.

[3] Jesus didn't mention even one thing (or person) to be considered as being sacred or holy. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus approved with time many things as being sacred; besides many persons as being Saints (closer to God than all other men).

In fact, saying "Jesus is perfect in his teachings" is considered as one of the greatest blasphemies against today's Christianity (I was banned from a Christian forum for saying it a couple of times). And at the same time, Christians are supposed seeing Jesus as the Living Son of God, hence a perfect divine being and not just a man. The reason it is a blaspheme is: If Christians are supposed to understand and follow Jesus teachings only (which is not easy at all), the various Churches around the world (starting from Vatican-Rome) will almost lose all the big donations from their Christian believers. Many priests I knew confessed me this hidden truth. It was an excuse for not preaching Jesus sayings in the same way Jesus did.

I've seen cited passages that refute every single one of those points about Jeebus, and that unconditional love thing is a load of naive hippy-dippy shit (but then if you're a guy who knows you're going to get crucified to death by your enemies and that's your whole reason for being, why wouldn't you love them? Not exactly a practical lesson for the rest of us. Also telling people to abandon their families to follow him.) Sure, you can make the claim that he said or did one thing, but that doesn't matter worth dick if there's one or more retractions of that somewhere else (sometimes on the same page) that reveal a remarkable lack of awareness on the part of the author and editor. This is why you can interpret these books to mean whatever the fuck you want; you're always going to be right because on top of being able to twist it into whatever form you want since it's so unspecific, but you can claim to dismiss anything in there that contradicts it too. Can you imagine if scientific textbooks were written in this way?
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
Reply
#96
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 29, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 1:12 am)Aliza Wrote: Did I use the term wrong? Jews don't recognize the attributes of the trinity god that Christians believe, even if a few attributes did come from Judaism. Looking at the description of the Jewish G-d and the Christian god, they do not appear to be the same entity. Jews do not acknowledge radical changes to the definition of G-d, as the Christians have done, so from a Jewish perspective, we are following different entities.

Sorry I do not see it that way, the OT gives us much information about what the Israelites believed about God. God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Christ are all there. The Jewish people are awaiting Christ's first appearance, they missed the fact that after Christ's resurrection things change in their worship of God. How they missed it I do not know.

GC

lol
Reply
#97
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 30, 2017 at 1:59 am)Aliza Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Sorry I do not see it that way, the OT gives us much information about what the Israelites believed about God. God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Christ are all there. The Jewish people are awaiting Christ's first appearance, they missed the fact that after Christ's resurrection things change in their worship of God. How they missed it I do not know.

GC

lol


Must have been before the 24 hour news cycle.
Reply
#98
If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 30, 2017 at 2:03 am)Whateverist Wrote:
(June 30, 2017 at 1:59 am)Aliza Wrote: lol


Must have been before the 24 hour news cycle.

It's always funny to me when some Christian comes 'round saying that the Jews "missed" their Jesus-guy. They never consider the remote possibility that we wrote the book and have actually read it. If you're a Christian, then you'd have to concede that the Jews have a direct, unbroken chain of communication going back to Moses, yet some how, we "missed" their Jesus-guy. Whoopsie daisy! (This assertion that Jews can't or don't read the book is literally the root of antisemitism.)

GC should try learning Hebrew and reading the book in the language in which it was written. Then maybe all those Jesus insertions the Christians added to the book won't seem quite as apparent as they do in their bible.
Reply
#99
RE: If God of Abraham is true,
(June 29, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Astonished Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 5:39 pm)KerimF Wrote: I was always surprised (but now I am used to) how a person doesn't mind calling himself a Christian while he doesn't take seriously the most crucial teachings of Jesus Christ.

[1] Jesus didn't present any formal ritual to be practiced at certain specific times and/or places. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various rituals (that suit their regions). Therefore, millions in the world, known as Christians, practice these rituals, in groups, at specific times and places with the same joy that Pagans, Muslims and Jews have while they practice their religious rituals.

[2] Jesus didn't approve any rule/commandment to be imposed on men.  But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus created various well-defined authorities (that also suit their regions) in the name of Jesus (or God). By the way, living the unconditional love towards all others would lose its great meaning if commanded (ordered as in the army) by any authority... even by God. By the way, the unconditional love as taught by Jesus cannot be found in any known religion, including Judaism.

[3] Jesus didn't mention even one thing (or person) to be considered as being sacred or holy. But those who claimed being inspired by Jesus approved with time many things as being sacred; besides many persons as being Saints (closer to God than all other men).

In fact, saying "Jesus is perfect in his teachings" is considered as one of the greatest blasphemies against today's Christianity (I was banned from a Christian forum for saying it a couple of times). And at the same time, Christians are supposed seeing Jesus as the Living Son of God, hence a perfect divine being and not just a man. The reason it is a blaspheme is: If Christians are supposed to understand and follow Jesus teachings only (which is not easy at all), the various Churches around the world (starting from Vatican-Rome) will almost lose all the big donations from their Christian believers. Many priests I knew confessed me this hidden truth. It was an excuse for not preaching Jesus sayings in the same way Jesus did.

I've seen cited passages that refute every single one of those points about Jeebus, and that unconditional love thing is a load of naive hippy-dippy shit (but then if you're a guy who knows you're going to get crucified to death by your enemies and that's your whole reason for being, why wouldn't you love them? Not exactly a practical lesson for the rest of us. Also telling people to abandon their families to follow him.) Sure, you can make the claim that he said or did one thing, but that doesn't matter worth dick if there's one or more retractions of that somewhere else (sometimes on the same page) that reveal a remarkable lack of awareness on the part of the author and editor. This is why you can interpret these books to mean whatever the fuck you want; you're always going to be right because on top of being able to twist it into whatever form you want since it's so unspecific, but you can claim to dismiss anything in there that contradicts it too. Can you imagine if scientific textbooks were written in this way?

As you said, Jesus message is surely not for all humans as it is not for other living things in the world.

As you know, even those who call themselves, for one reason or another, Christians (mainly the privileged ones) cannot, even if they want to, take seriously, speaking practically, most of what Jesus says (as written on the today's Gospel).

After all, those who have (are born with) a human living flesh only don't need, on these days, hearing any message from the Will/Power that forced them to exist in the time/space realm, we call life. They are already guided to play their various roles in life by instructions embedded in their living cells that are inherited while being evolved since millions of years and not necessarily on earth only. In other words, the continuity of life on earth and its progress is served by all living things, including most humans, the way they are instructed to do (instincts for example).

But it happens that not all humans on earth are born of flesh only. So living to serve the world, in wars (destroying) and peace (building), is not necessarily a priority to all humans. And it is natural that you, for example, are confused about the reason for which a person may live the unconditional love and care towards all others, friends and enemies. The reason, in this case, is surely not to avoid a punishment or to get a reward afterlife.
Answering: What is my point?
https://atheistforums.org/thread-49852.html
Reply
RE: If God of Abraham is true, then why didnt he use his intelligent design to make a new
(June 30, 2017 at 3:27 am)KerimF Wrote:
(June 29, 2017 at 11:43 pm)Astonished Wrote: I've seen cited passages that refute every single one of those points about Jeebus, and that unconditional love thing is a load of naive hippy-dippy shit (but then if you're a guy who knows you're going to get crucified to death by your enemies and that's your whole reason for being, why wouldn't you love them? Not exactly a practical lesson for the rest of us. Also telling people to abandon their families to follow him.) Sure, you can make the claim that he said or did one thing, but that doesn't matter worth dick if there's one or more retractions of that somewhere else (sometimes on the same page) that reveal a remarkable lack of awareness on the part of the author and editor. This is why you can interpret these books to mean whatever the fuck you want; you're always going to be right because on top of being able to twist it into whatever form you want since it's so unspecific, but you can claim to dismiss anything in there that contradicts it too. Can you imagine if scientific textbooks were written in this way?

As you said, Jesus message is surely not for all humans as it is not for other living things in the world.

As you know, even those who call themselves, for one reason or another, Christians (mainly the privileged ones) cannot, even if they want to, take seriously, speaking practically, most of what Jesus says (as written on the today's Gospel).

After all, those who have (are born with) a human living flesh only don't need, on these days, hearing any message from the Will/Power that forced them to exist in the time/space realm, we call life. They are already guided to play their various roles in life by instructions embedded in their living cells that are inherited while being evolved since millions of years and not necessarily on earth only. In other words, the continuity of life on earth and its progress is served by all living things, including most humans, the way they are instructed to do (instincts for example).

But it happens that not all humans on earth are born of flesh only. So living to serve the world, in wars (destroying) and peace (building), is not necessarily a priority to all humans. And it is natural that you, for example, are confused about the reason for which a person may live the unconditional love and care towards all others, friends and enemies. The reason, in this case, is surely not to avoid a punishment or to get a reward afterlife.

Aaaand, go fuck yourself for making an unfounded assumption about what I do or do not understand, chump. Unconditional love isn't exactly a high survival value in evolutionary terms (but then you must be an ignoramus where that's concerned, or am I making an unwarranted assumption?) but a simple altruism untainted by hippy-dippy naivete does seem to work rather well. I understand painfully well why people adopt these irrational practices and carry them out to their peril and to their horrible demises and I don't envy nor admire them and neither should you. Or are you just confused about whatever point it is you think you're trying to make?
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
Reply



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