I didn't get the impression Steve takes the first few passages of Genesis literally at all, but of course you will pretend to agree with one another.

Quote:You have no excuse for ignoring what has been clearly taught for 800 years.

Yes, humanity made such progress reading and re-reading ancient bullshit.  We still do it today.

Oh wait.  No we don't!

That's why we now explore space instead of cowering in huts.

Dearest Drich,

We've been through this before, but there has never been a time since our species, Homo sapiens sapiens, split from chimpanzees, that the homo population has been less than 10,000 individuals:

Wikipedia -- Mitochondrial_Eve

The Genesis account is an absurdity; it has been falsified.  We know this to be so, because there have been Evangelical Christian fundamentalists, such as yourself, who have served on capital juries who have sentenced criminal defendants to death and execution based upon DNA evidence alone.

Ergo, you don't believe in Genesis.

Dawn

Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

(October 18, 2018 at 5:23 am)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

Talking snake, yeah right. I don't buy that it's allegorical or metaphorical or whatever figuratively preposterous apologetic theists wish to attribute to it, because it's either a complete work of fiction or to be taken literally. I'm not delusional, so I will go with the former.

I would argue that it is more human to know of good and evil than that such knowledge can only be attributed to a god. The writer had an obvious bias against wise people.

If god is all knowing, why is he questioning them? He already knows, correct? Poor dialogue choices on part of the fallible writer who was clearly not divinely inspired whatsoever.

(October 18, 2018 at 5:23 am)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

This has always struck me as - to put it mildly - a morally bankrupt story.  God punishes Adam and Eve for doing something they could not possibly have known was wrong.  Yes, he told them not to eat of the Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Evil.  But until they gained that knowledge, they couldn't have known that disobeying God was an evil act.

Boru

(October 18, 2018 at 5:23 am)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

"...your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I wonder about the nuances of the Hebrew word that's translated here as "knowing." The usual sense that people seem to have of it is that once they've eaten the fruit, A&E will know what is good and what is evil -- they will gain cognizance of these things. But in (literary) English "know" can also mean "experience." Like "In my long life I have known great hardship." Does anybody here know how to use a Hebrew concordance or something? I don't. 

I assume that God doesn't know good and evil in the sense of living through it, but he does observe it in the world -- he does have to watch it. He knows that it's out there, which A&E hadn't known. 

Anyway, I'm leaning toward an interpretation where the problem A&E get isn't added understanding or data about the world, but instead that they are forced to leave the naive but boring condition of the pre-Fall into a world of both bliss and suffering. This is sort of along the lines of Milton's version. 

As such, I see the whole thing as an allegory of birth. We are perfectly happy in the womb, but it would be a boring and unchallenging existence if we never left. By extension, the story is about leaving home, breaking out, all the cases where we give up a stable state for something we have to go through if we want to be more human. If the Old Testament is a symbolic representation of the trials and failings of life on earth, it starts with getting kicked out of the womb. 

(As you've noticed, I don't much care about the original authors' intent. Or I could get all Freudian, and say that they subconsciously meant my interpretation, although they didn't know it.) 

An important aspect that some Christians read into it and others don't: the felix culpa. Milton and all the Romantics thought that the Fall was, in the long run, a good thing. Without it, we would have stayed in the pretty-OK Eden and never made it to the totally-wonderful Heaven. I can't recall when the felix culpa idea got going. Dante, for one, doesn't mention it.

(October 17, 2018 at 7:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(October 17, 2018 at 1:15 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Steve complains that we're not reading deeply enough into the background of the text.  When we do, Drich comes along and complains we're ignoring the plain meaning of the text.  And then when we do, along come Neo and Catholic Lady to tell us it's all symbolic and we should ignore the plain meaning of the text.  You just can't win with these fuckheads.

There really aren't any words to describe the ignorance behind your insults. How SteveII, Drich, C/L, and I approach scripture are not mutually exclusive. You have no excuse for ignoring what has been clearly taught for 800 years. That just reveals how dishonest and disturbed you remain.

You really are a lying, dishonest, unethical cunt, Neo. I was going to report you for misquoting me but I want everybody to see what a transparent and guileless liar you are. You took the one part of my comment that wasn't serious, and by cutting out my qualifier that I was being facetious, treat it as a serious remark in order to use that as a pretext for calling me ignorant, dishonest, and disturbed. You've got some gall calling me dishonest and disturbed in the middle of what is essentially a lie that you are telling. You really have no scruples whatsoever. You chose to focus on the one part of my post that wasn't serious to the exclusion of the serious parts, solely so you could insult and deride me. An attempt which ultimately fails because it's obvious you misrepresented what I wrote. You're not only a liar, you're a bad liar. You truly are a shameless scumbag.

(October 17, 2018 at 7:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Good luck. Have a nice life.

Go die in a fire you worthless piece of shit.

(October 18, 2018 at 7:23 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(October 18, 2018 at 5:23 am)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, next passage:

The Fall

Probably the first philosophically interesting passage. Who would like to give this an analysis? Doesn't matter what type of analysis, anything is fine.

"...your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I wonder about the nuances of the Hebrew word that's translated here as "knowing." The usual sense that people seem to have of it is that once they've eaten the fruit, A&E will know what is good and what is evil -- they will gain cognizance of these things. But in (literary) English "know" can also mean "experience." Like "In my long life I have known great hardship." Does anybody here know how to use a Hebrew concordance or something? I don't. 

I assume that God doesn't know good and evil in the sense of living through it, but he does observe it in the world -- he does have to watch it. He knows that it's out there, which A&E hadn't known. 

Anyway, I'm leaning toward an interpretation where the problem A&E get isn't added understanding or data about the world, but instead that they are forced to leave the naive but boring condition of the pre-Fall into a world of both bliss and suffering. This is sort of along the lines of Milton's version. 

As such, I see the whole thing as an allegory of birth. We are perfectly happy in the womb, but it would be a boring and unchallenging existence if we never left. By extension, the story is about leaving home, breaking out, all the cases where we give up a stable state for something we have to go through if we want to be more human. If the Old Testament is a symbolic representation of the trials and failings of life on earth, it starts with getting kicked out of the womb. 

(As you've noticed, I don't much care about the original authors' intent. Or I could get all Freudian, and say that they subconsciously meant my interpretation, although they didn't know it.) 

An important aspect that some Christians read into it and others don't: the felix culpa. Milton and all the Romantics thought that the Fall was, in the long run, a good thing. Without it, we would have stayed in the pretty-OK Eden and never made it to the totally-wonderful Heaven. I can't recall when the felix culpa idea got going. Dante, for one, doesn't mention it.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3045&t=ESV 

יָדַע yâdaʻ, yaw-dah'; a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.):—acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-) awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, 

(October 18, 2018 at 8:40 am)Bahana Wrote: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3045&t=ESV 

יָדַע yâdaʻ, yaw-dah'; a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.):—acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-) awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, 

Thank you! That's what I needed!

What do you think...? I'd say the entry there doesn't rule out my preferred version. The full entry includes things like "to know by seeing," "to be acquainted with," etc. Which would include not just ideas popping into A&E's heads but knowing through experience. 

And it reminds me of the line from Isaiah, quoted in Handel's Messiah: "[He was] a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief." That might be relevant.......