(November 17, 2018 at 5:56 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Oh, or sure.  Haters gotta hate.  The only difference between a theistic hater and any other hater is that the theistic hater believes that his hate is sanctioned by the lord of the cosmos.  

(November 17, 2018 at 6:21 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Judaism aint exactly dirt free.

(November 17, 2018 at 6:11 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Again, theism as amplifier, not cause.  People will be people..part of what we are just isn't that nice.  When we begin to imagine that the nasty bits of ourselves are the commands of the emperor of creation shit starts to go sideways real fast.

A believing douche has warrant that a standard douche simply doesn't.  I'm a standard douche, for example....lol.  One of the things standing between me and doing the sorts of things a believing douche gets up to is that I realize that my douchery is my own, these are my own opinions - not the mandate of heaven.

(November 17, 2018 at 6:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote: But I suppose most thoughtful theists would hope it can also be an amplifier for their better nature.  Becoming convinced and defensive about it being where it all goes to hell.  

@Aliza: Thats "sheol" for you, BTW.  

(November 17, 2018 at 6:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(November 17, 2018 at 6:11 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Again, theism as amplifier, not cause.  People will be people..part of what we are just isn't that nice.  When we begin to imagine that the nasty bits of ourselves are the commands of the emperor of creation shit starts to go sideways real fast.

A believing douche has warrant that a standard douche simply doesn't.  I'm a standard douche, for example....lol.  One of the things standing between me and doing the sorts of things a believing douche gets up to is that I realize that my douchery is my own, these are my own opinions - not the mandate of heaven.

But I suppose most thoughtful theists would hope it can also be an amplifier for their better nature.  Becoming convinced and defensive about it being where it all goes to hell.  

@Aliza: Thats "sheol" for you, BTW.  

(November 17, 2018 at 6:41 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(November 17, 2018 at 6:28 pm)Whateverist Wrote: But I suppose most thoughtful theists would hope it can also be an amplifier for their better nature.  Becoming convinced and defensive about it being where it all goes to hell.  

@Aliza: Thats "sheol" for you, BTW.  

-and that's where we have to ask ourselves to find some good thing that only a believer could do.  

Could theistic belief amplify the better angels of our nature?  IDK, maybe, it doesn't seem to have done so thusfar, and it may be that the belief sets we've had so far are just shit and one day a better set of beliefs will crop up...but if so, to a greater degree than a non believers better angels can be amplified?  There seems to be a fundamental disparity of effect.  Mouse in a snakepit, can't say it enough.

(November 17, 2018 at 4:38 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(November 17, 2018 at 6:56 am)Rahn127 Wrote: First I'll address the spoiler. At the most basic level, theists think a god exists. That's the common thread among all theists, by definition.

After that any theist can hold any number of beliefs about anything involving their god, their religion, etc.

Yes, there is something wrong when you hold a belief to be true without any supporting evidence. When a large segment of a voting population share a common delusion or large segments of a population have different confrontational delusions, this is never good for a productive, law abiding society.

And when you mix delusional laws that they believe were given to them by their imaginary god with secular laws, you often don't get a well behaved individual.

You get someone who wants to impose their delusions upon others and wants to inact their delusional laws upon the rest of society.

Believing whatever you want is fine if you're living on an island by yourself, but people tend to interact with each other. We have to work together and it helps if we all can agree on what is real and what is fantasy.

Because when the jesus freaks try to kill you in hopes of saving your soul, it doesn't make for a productive society.

Suppose a segment of the voting population votes in favor of civil rights because their religious beliefs say that all people are the same while another group of voters believe that Hitler’s evidence for racial supremacy holds water and they vote to support legislation to suppress non-white races. Neo-Nazis think they have evidence, not faith.

I just don’t see theism as the root of all the world’s problems. I think assholery is the problem and yes, theists can be real assholes. –But so can other groups of people.

(November 17, 2018 at 5:51 pm)Aliza Wrote: I guess my point is that if the believers in question were going to do something shitty, it was independent of what the book said.

(November 17, 2018 at 8:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Following falsehood at the end, to stick to idols in the form scholars or clergy, will not be accepted by God. Muslims, Jews, Christians, are all the same in this respect.  And those who strive and begin to break these idols, they will follow the truth of the light of the Prophets and Guiding Kings for their people, but one must prioritize obeying God.

You can't knowingly disobey God to obey people.  And Muslims and Shiites as well, are notorious for this.  They abandon God's book when having to a make decision between following their clergy or Quran. And it hasn't lead to unity either, but more and more divisions.

Idols in the heart; had they loved God more, they would have disobeyed their clergy and commanded the good that they know God commanded and forbid the evil they know God forbid.