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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
November 30, 2018 at 10:55 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2018 at 11:00 pm by Cherub786.)
(November 30, 2018 at 2:35 pm)unfogged Wrote: (November 30, 2018 at 1:50 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: Semantics. If you don't believe the universe was created ex nihilo then you believe it wasn't created ex nihilo.
That is simply incorrect.
I can not believe that the number of gumballs in the jar is odd while also not believing it is even. It has to be one or the other but that does not mean I am required to take position that is not supported.
By the same token, it it quite possible to not believe the claim that the universe was created ex-nihilo and also not believe the claim that it wasn't.
If you have evidence that it was, present it.
If you have evidence it wasn't, present that.
Without evidence, neither claim is believable and both claims are rejected pending further investigation.
Fair enough, that's the agnostic position. I want to know the evidence for the claim that the universe was not created ex nihilo, and this is the claim of Mister Agenda.
(November 30, 2018 at 4:46 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: (November 30, 2018 at 1:50 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: Semantics. If you don't believe the universe was created ex nihilo then you believe it wasn't created ex nihilo.
Do you believe ice (snow) is created ex nihilo when the temperature is low enough ?
Where did this ice come from if it wasn't created ?
Our universe is much the same.
It wasn't created. The energy of the universe expanded and matter formed.
I realize this is a very simplistic model but I think it's useful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old
What happens if you get in a time machine and go back, say, 20 billion years ago.
Is there any energy? There isn't time right? Time came into being 13.8 billion years ago?
Are you saying the universe came from pre-existing energy?
If so, was that pre-existing energy always there, without beginning, or did it have a beginning?
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 12:03 am
(November 30, 2018 at 10:55 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: (November 30, 2018 at 4:46 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: Do you believe ice (snow) is created ex nihilo when the temperature is low enough ?
Where did this ice come from if it wasn't created ?
Our universe is much the same.
It wasn't created. The energy of the universe expanded and matter formed.
I realize this is a very simplistic model but I think it's useful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old
What happens if you get in a time machine and go back, say, 20 billion years ago.
Is there any energy? There isn't time right? Time came into being 13.8 billion years ago?
Are you saying the universe came from pre-existing energy?
If so, was that pre-existing energy always there, without beginning, or did it have a beginning?
The universe is energy. If you go back in time as far as you can go, the energy of the universe is still there. Where would it go ?
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 12:07 am
(December 1, 2018 at 12:03 am)Rahn127 Wrote: (November 30, 2018 at 10:55 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old
What happens if you get in a time machine and go back, say, 20 billion years ago.
Is there any energy? There isn't time right? Time came into being 13.8 billion years ago?
Are you saying the universe came from pre-existing energy?
If so, was that pre-existing energy always there, without beginning, or did it have a beginning?
The universe is energy. If you go back in time as far as you can go, the energy of the universe is still there. Where would it go ?
What caused that energy to come into being?
What caused that energy to suddenly expand?
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 3:01 am
We dont know
and you dont know either. 
So what?
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 3:08 am
(December 1, 2018 at 12:07 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 1, 2018 at 12:03 am)Rahn127 Wrote: The universe is energy. If you go back in time as far as you can go, the energy of the universe is still there. Where would it go ?
What caused that energy to come into being?
What caused that energy to suddenly expand?
The energy of the universe exists.
What conditions could cause it not to exist ?
Are you of the belief that nothing existed at some point in the past ?
I don't even know how that would be possible.
As for the expansion, not enough information to determine if it was natural instability or perhaps that's just the natural way these things happen.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 3:18 am
(December 1, 2018 at 3:08 am)Rahn127 Wrote: (December 1, 2018 at 12:07 am)Cherub786 Wrote: What caused that energy to come into being?
What caused that energy to suddenly expand?
The energy of the universe exists.
What conditions could cause it not to exist ?
Are you of the belief that nothing existed at some point in the past ?
I don't even know how that would be possible.
As for the expansion, not enough information to determine if it was natural instability or perhaps that's just the natural way these things happen.
As to my second question, your answer is basically that you don't know (correct me if I'm wrong)
So are you saying that the energy of the universe was not preceded by non-existence, in other words do you believe the universe was not preceded by non-existence. I mean in terms of sequence not time.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 7:21 am
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2018 at 7:32 am by Rahn127.)
(December 1, 2018 at 3:18 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 1, 2018 at 3:08 am)Rahn127 Wrote: The energy of the universe exists.
What conditions could cause it not to exist ?
Are you of the belief that nothing existed at some point in the past ?
I don't even know how that would be possible.
As for the expansion, not enough information to determine if it was natural instability or perhaps that's just the natural way these things happen.
As to my second question, your answer is basically that you don't know (correct me if I'm wrong)
So are you saying that the energy of the universe was not preceded by non-existence, in other words do you believe the universe was not preceded by non-existence. I mean in terms of sequence not time.
I have no reason to believe that non-existence is a state that can be achieved in an isolated system in which the conservation of energy applies.
As for what causes expansion, you are correct, I don't know, but cosmologists & physicists are studying that as we speak. I'm sure they know a great deal more than you or I do on the subject.
I'm trying to give my opinion on the topic as best as I understand it. And think that's what we all try to do.
It's our level of understanding that sometimes gets in the way. New information that changes our perspective can be scary at times.
That's why it's important to believe those things for which we have evidence for. We can create hypotheticals, but in the end, we still have to test those to see if they are true before we believe them.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 8:39 am
(December 1, 2018 at 12:07 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 1, 2018 at 12:03 am)Rahn127 Wrote: The universe is energy. If you go back in time as far as you can go, the energy of the universe is still there. Where would it go ?
What caused that energy to come into being?
What caused that energy to suddenly expand?
Some as undefined natural phenomena.
Things that could not have caused it.
Any intelligent agency.
There is one way we know for something to gain intelligence and that is by being part of an active evolutionary system. Before the universe came into existence the pre-requisites for intelligence were not present.
So it was not any form of god.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 10:24 am
(November 30, 2018 at 10:55 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old
What happens if you get in a time machine and go back, say, 20 billion years ago. What's north of the north pole?
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 1, 2018 at 10:38 am
(December 1, 2018 at 8:39 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Some as undefined natural phenomena.
Things that could not have caused it.
Any intelligent agency.
There is one way we know for something to gain intelligence and that is by being part of an active evolutionary system. Before the universe came into existence the pre-requisites for intelligence were not present.
So it was not any form of god.
What is the difference between a natural phenomenon and an intelligent one and how are you sure that the cause for the expansion of the universe is a natural phenomenon and not an intelligent one, or a conscious one (these are 2 questions)
A third question, you state that intelligence can only exist after an active evolutionary system and that the pre requisite for intelligence were not present before the existence of the universe. What do you mean by this and what is the evidence for this assertion?
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