Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 3:34 am
(December 3, 2018 at 3:50 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 1, 2018 at 2:30 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I just posted this within the last several weeks, and Polymath provided an updated link:
Creation of Universes from Nothing
Please note the plural in the paper.
So I read that paper and here's the bottom line:
"In this paper I would like to suggest a new cosmological scenario in which the universe is spontaneously created from literally nothing."
Interestingly the author, Vilenkin, used the word "created" implying a Creator.
But he also says "spontaneously" without further detail.
Literally nothing. Yes, in other words, creatio ex nihilo.
The question remains, does something come from "literally nothing"?
What caused it to come into being? If it was a natural phenomenon as someone suggested on this thread, where did that natural phenomenon come from?
Remember this quote "the universe is spontaneously created from literally nothing"
It is very significant.
Maybe the Cosmos just is, and simply requires no explanation; existence, like 2+2 = 4, is simply a brute fact that requires no explanation. Hence, "nothing" is a physical impossibility; as such, the Cosmos is eternal, without beginning or end, and without a center or an edge.
Posts: 232
Threads: 2
Joined: November 29, 2018
Reputation:
0
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 5:31 am
(December 4, 2018 at 3:34 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe the Cosmos just is, and simply requires no explanation; existence, like 2+2 = 4, is simply a brute fact that requires no explanation. Hence, "nothing" is a physical impossibility; as such, the Cosmos is eternal, without beginning or end, and without a center or an edge.
Scientists say there is an explanation for everything, even if we haven't found it yet. Mathematics is a mental construct.
Scientists don't believe the cosmos is eternal or without beginning, most of them anyways.
Posts: 6610
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 5:56 am
(December 4, 2018 at 5:31 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 4, 2018 at 3:34 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe the Cosmos just is, and simply requires no explanation; existence, like 2+2 = 4, is simply a brute fact that requires no explanation. Hence, "nothing" is a physical impossibility; as such, the Cosmos is eternal, without beginning or end, and without a center or an edge.
Scientists say there is an explanation for everything, even if we haven't found it yet. Mathematics is a mental construct.
Scientists don't believe the cosmos is eternal or without beginning, most of them anyways.
Where did you get the stats from?
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 10:18 am
(December 4, 2018 at 5:31 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 4, 2018 at 3:34 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe the Cosmos just is, and simply requires no explanation; existence, like 2+2 = 4, is simply a brute fact that requires no explanation. Hence, "nothing" is a physical impossibility; as such, the Cosmos is eternal, without beginning or end, and without a center or an edge.
Scientists say there is an explanation for everything, even if we haven't found it yet. Mathematics is a mental construct.
Scientists don't believe the cosmos is eternal or without beginning, most of them anyways.
I don't know where you are getting your information; even if true, the majority to most scientists are atheistic:
Quote:A 1998 survey based on a self-selected sample of biological and physical scientists of the National Academy of Sciences in the United States found that 7% believed in the existence of God, 72.2% did not, and 20.8% were agnostic or had doubts.[49] Eugenie Scott argued that there are methodological issues in the study, including ambiguity in the questions. A study on leading scientists in the US, with clearer wording and allowing for a broader concept of "god", concluded that 40% of prominent scientists believe in god.[50]
Wikipedia -- Demographics of atheism: Geographic distribution
Ditto for most philosophers:
The Largest-Ever Survey of Philosophers: What Do They Believe?
Posts: 232
Threads: 2
Joined: November 29, 2018
Reputation:
0
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 10:30 am
(December 4, 2018 at 10:18 am)Jehanne Wrote: (December 4, 2018 at 5:31 am)Cherub786 Wrote: Scientists say there is an explanation for everything, even if we haven't found it yet. Mathematics is a mental construct.
Scientists don't believe the cosmos is eternal or without beginning, most of them anyways.
I don't know where you are getting your information; even if true, the majority to most scientists are atheistic:
Quote:A 1998 survey based on a self-selected sample of biological and physical scientists of the National Academy of Sciences in the United States found that 7% believed in the existence of God, 72.2% did not, and 20.8% were agnostic or had doubts.[49] Eugenie Scott argued that there are methodological issues in the study, including ambiguity in the questions. A study on leading scientists in the US, with clearer wording and allowing for a broader concept of "god", concluded that 40% of prominent scientists believe in god.[50]
Wikipedia -- Demographics of atheism: Geographic distribution
Ditto for most philosophers:
The Largest-Ever Survey of Philosophers: What Do They Believe?
It's immaterial whether majority of scientists are atheists or not. The point is that majority of cosmologists and physicists acknowledge the truth that the universe is not eternal, and they generally agree that they have no solid explanation for how and why the universe came about.
They say that the beginning of the universe is a "singularity". Now it is all theoretical, based on mathematical formulas and so many assumptions.
Even these atheist scientists are forced to admit that the questions about the nature of the cosmos and how it came into being naturally lead to belief in God, as Dawkins said:
I think that when you consider the beauty of the world and you wonder how it came to be what it is, you are naturally overwhelmedwith a feeling of awe, a feeling of admiration and you almost feel a desire to worship something. I feel this, I recognise that other scientists such as Carl Sagan feel this, Einstein felt it. We, all of us, share a kind of religious reverence for the beauties of the universe, for the complexity of life. For the sheer magnitude of the cosmos, the sheer magnitude of geological time. And it's tempting to translate that feeling of awe and worship into a desire to worship some particular thing, a person, an agent. You want to attribute it to a maker, to a creator.
Posts: 7568
Threads: 20
Joined: July 26, 2013
Reputation:
54
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 10:40 am
(December 4, 2018 at 10:30 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 4, 2018 at 10:18 am)Jehanne Wrote: I don't know where you are getting your information; even if true, the majority to most scientists are atheistic:
Wikipedia -- Demographics of atheism: Geographic distribution
Ditto for most philosophers:
The Largest-Ever Survey of Philosophers: What Do They Believe?
It's immaterial whether majority of scientists are atheists or not. The point is that majority of cosmologists and physicists acknowledge the truth that the universe is not eternal, and they generally agree that they have no solid explanation for how and why the universe came about.
They say that the beginning of the universe is a "singularity". Now it is all theoretical, based on mathematical formulas and so many assumptions.
Even these atheist scientists are forced to admit that the questions about the nature of the cosmos and how it came into being naturally lead to belief in God, as Dawkins said:
I think that when you consider the beauty of the world and you wonder how it came to be what it is, you are naturally overwhelmedwith a feeling of awe, a feeling of admiration and you almost feel a desire to worship something. I feel this, I recognise that other scientists such as Carl Sagan feel this, Einstein felt it. We, all of us, share a kind of religious reverence for the beauties of the universe, for the complexity of life. For the sheer magnitude of the cosmos, the sheer magnitude of geological time. And it's tempting to translate that feeling of awe and worship into a desire to worship some particular thing, a person, an agent. You want to attribute it to a maker, to a creator.
Citation needed. No offense, but you Abrahamists have a poor track record when it comes to properly quoting atheists in context. It's a lack of fundamental honesty that seems to go hand in hand with an irresponsible approach to your so-called scriptures. Bad reading is bad. To wit, 'temptation to translate a feeling of awe' is not the same as belief in God, nor does it necessarily result in it. Obviously, since you are supposedly quoting . . . Dawkins.
Posts: 67379
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 10:44 am
Perhaps you ought to be asking yourself why it is that, though we all feel that sense of the numinous, only the religious fall to their knees in service to such a patently ridiculous idea as a wizard in the clouds?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 7568
Threads: 20
Joined: July 26, 2013
Reputation:
54
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 10:56 am
(December 4, 2018 at 10:44 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Perhaps you ought to be asking yourself why it is that, though we all feel that sense of the numinous, only the religious fall to their knees in service to such a patently ridiculous idea as a wizard in the clouds?
Right.
What was the phrase you used in the other thread, Cherub? General debasement? Not all of us are moved to debase ourselves when we contemplate the vast beauty of the cosmos. Some of us prefer to remain standing. That you and those like you prefer to crawl in the service of a book's character is only to be expected of an Abrahamist, but it is not admirable and it is not necessary.
Posts: 232
Threads: 2
Joined: November 29, 2018
Reputation:
0
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 11:10 am
(This post was last modified: December 4, 2018 at 11:13 am by Cherub786.)
(December 4, 2018 at 10:40 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: Citation needed.
This quote from Richard Dawkins is from his Fixed-Point debate with John Lennox at the University of Alabama in 2007
So you'll find the quote from Dawkins in his own voice somewhere in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF5bPI92-5o
Posts: 7568
Threads: 20
Joined: July 26, 2013
Reputation:
54
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
December 4, 2018 at 11:13 am
(December 4, 2018 at 11:10 am)Cherub786 Wrote: (December 4, 2018 at 10:40 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: Citation needed.
This quote from Richard Dawkins is from his Fixed-Point debate with John Lennox at the University of Alabama in 2007
And your point in quoting it? To inform us that even atheists experience the numinous? Well, no shit! We know that. They also remain atheists and don't happen to believe in your holy book.
Again, your point?
|
