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Arguments against existence of God.
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 2:36 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Cherub786 Wrote: Logic and philosophy are separate from the laws of physics. The laws of physics are limited in scope and cannot be applied to what if anything exists beyond the universe, but logic and philosophy are broader in their scope and can be applied to anything.
Every effect having a cause is not a law of physics, it is derived from logic.

Nope. Totally false.
There are many logical systems. Here are twenty five of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:S...rmal_logic
FIRST, you have to demonstrate and prove the system you are using, actually applies. You have no way of doing that with conditions that may or may not have applied to
what could be external to this universe.

Many logical systems, while being totally internally consistent, do not obtain in reality.
What appears to humans on the macro level to be logically intuitive, is not the way reality works, necessarily.

So no. Your "cause and effect" not only is not applicable, but we know there are examples where there is no cause ...
for example virtual particles and the random radioactive decay of atoms ... which is totally not predictable, and has no known cause.

(December 5, 2018 at 12:27 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: God isn't a requirement of "religion."  Many Chinese people don't believe in any god whatsoever, but manage to be religious people, who attribute various "supernatural" attributes to things like their ancestors, birds, dragons, and what not.  Other Chinese don't believe that at all and are still atheists.  Many work in factories making aluminum and other goods.  All atheists and no science necessary.  Atheism is not a prerequisite of science.  You could literally obliterate the notion of atheism from human existence and we would still have science.  That doesn't mean atheists can't be scientists, and many are.  But at the end of the day, most aren't and that's fine.  It doesn't make them dumb or irrelevant.  It just makes them opinionated and/or religious.

Nice try ... that's all irrelevant.
What they do or do not do in China is totally beside the point.
The point was whether atheism is a religion, not what constitutes other forms of religion.  
The point is, gods are a requirement of theism. When labeling someone an a-theist, it means they have no god. Nothing else.

No sorry, cherry picking definitions doesn't work on me.  Try again.

You have religious claims, organization, protections, collect offerings that are tax exempt, and make claims beyond the scope of how said agency is defined.  I live in the United States of America.  Here you are both legally and empirically a "religion" with said protections.  To discount the Chinese is also irrelevant because their definition differs from your said definition and their primary religion is atheism.  Your opinion doesn't dictate anything beyond the scope of who you are.  If you say you are an atheist, that's your opinion.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
Quote:You have religious claims
What claim(s) exactly? Huh
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 3:34 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: No sorry, cherry picking definitions doesn't work on me.  Try again.

You have religious claims, organization, protections, collect offerings that are tax exempt, and make claims beyond the scope of how said agency is defined.  I live in the United States of America.  Here you are both legally and empirically a "religion" with said protections.  To discount the Chinese is also irrelevant because their definition differs from your said definition and their primary religion is atheism.  Your opinion doesn't dictate anything beyond the scope of who you are.  If you say you are an atheist, that's your opinion.

Atheism is only recognized to have the same religious protections as religions. Beyond religious protection, it is not a religion.

Again, how can a single position on a single claim be a religion?

What religious claims do I have?

Yes, there are atheist organizations with tax exempt status, that take donations. So what? There are 1000's of organizations with tax exempt status and take donations that are not religions.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 5:30 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 3:34 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: No sorry, cherry picking definitions doesn't work on me.  Try again.

You have religious claims, organization, protections, collect offerings that are tax exempt, and make claims beyond the scope of how said agency is defined.  I live in the United States of America.  Here you are both legally and empirically a "religion" with said protections.  To discount the Chinese is also irrelevant because their definition differs from your said definition and their primary religion is atheism.  Your opinion doesn't dictate anything beyond the scope of who you are.  If you say you are an atheist, that's your opinion.

Atheism is only recognized to have the same religious protections as religions. Beyond religious protection, it is not a religion.

Again, how can a single position on a single claim be a religion?

What religious claims do I have?

Yes, there are atheist organizations with tax exempt status, that take donations. So what? There are 1000's of organizations with tax exempt status and take donations that are not religions.

Because many atheists have been adding their own dogma to it. If it was merely a single position, as you stated, it would still be just that.
Reply
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 5:45 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 5:30 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Atheism is only recognized to have the same religious protections as religions. Beyond religious protection, it is not a religion.

Again, how can a single position on a single claim be a religion?

What religious claims do I have?

Yes, there are atheist organizations with tax exempt status, that take donations. So what? There are 1000's of organizations with tax exempt status and take donations that are not religions.

Because many atheists have been adding their own dogma to it.  If it was merely a single position, as you stated, it would still be just that.

What dogma?

And who exactly are you referring to? I want names.
Reply
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 3:34 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: No sorry, cherry picking definitions doesn't work on me.  Try again.

You have religious claims, organization, protections, collect offerings that are tax exempt, and make claims beyond the scope of how said agency is defined.  I live in the United States of America.  Here you are both legally and empirically a "religion" with said protections.  To discount the Chinese is also irrelevant because their definition differs from your said definition and their primary religion is atheism.  Your opinion doesn't dictate anything beyond the scope of who you are.  If you say you are an atheist, that's your opinion.

I have no religious claims ... you have demonstrated NONE, I belong to no organizations, (by that idiotic definition, golfing would be a religion, as well as ANY organization where its members have anything in common), protections apply to many groups, not just religious, so fail again, I collect nothing. 

If a religionist says they are a person of faith, it's nothing but their opinion.

Here's the definition of religion. Atheism meets none of the standards of these definitions.
Do try harder again, next time.

"re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun
noun: religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
sect, church, cult, denomination
"the freedom to practice their own religion"
•a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
•a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"


If you're trying to make a case that no one actually knows what they think, and YOU know better, .... good luck with that one.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 6:02 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 5:45 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Because many atheists have been adding their own dogma to it.  If it was merely a single position, as you stated, it would still be just that.

What dogma?

And who exactly are you referring to? I want names.

Oh here's one of them.  It's amazing how it took less than a minute of his argument for someone to find logical fallacies, yet this "the case for atheism" as he so eloquently named his video.  He's also claiming that one subject is a construct and then forming to own "construct" then using fallacious arguments to promote such.  Of course he flounders worse and worse as it goes on.  Additionally his stance is not just atheism, but "metaphysical naturalism."  How much more dogma do we need here?  If beliefs about A are wrong, it doesn't automatically prove B is correct.  Of course to even make that assumption, we must accept his interpretation.  Why? 
Atheism is an opinion.  Having said opinion has nothing to do with science, origins, or anything else.  I can have no such opinions about such things and be an atheist, because there is no prerequisite to adhere to atheism.  So why does he even need a "case for atheism."  If the value is 0 (no gods whatsoever), it doesn't require input of any kind.  Once you start adding to it you end up with something else. Now you have atheist churches, hymns, offering plates, , tax exemptions, religious protections, etc...  





(December 5, 2018 at 6:22 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 3:34 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: No sorry, cherry picking definitions doesn't work on me.  Try again.

You have religious claims, organization, protections, collect offerings that are tax exempt, and make claims beyond the scope of how said agency is defined.  I live in the United States of America.  Here you are both legally and empirically a "religion" with said protections.  To discount the Chinese is also irrelevant because their definition differs from your said definition and their primary religion is atheism.  Your opinion doesn't dictate anything beyond the scope of who you are.  If you say you are an atheist, that's your opinion.

I have no religious claims ... you have demonstrated NONE, I belong to no organizations, (by that idiotic definition, golfing would be a religion, as well as ANY organization where its members have anything in common), protections apply to many groups, not just religious, so fail again, I collect nothing. 

If a religionist says they are a person of faith, it's nothing but their opinion.

Here's the definition of religion. Atheism meets none of the standards of these definitions.
Do try harder again, next time.

"re·li·gion
/rəˈlijən/
noun
noun: religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
sect, church, cult, denomination
"the freedom to practice their own religion"
•a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
•a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"


If you're trying to make a case that no one actually knows what they think, and YOU know better, .... good luck with that one.

Cherry picking definitions doesn't work.

I like how National Geographic put it here.
[/url]
[url=https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/]The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion


Of course the subtitle is perfect for this kind of thing:

"As secularism grows, atheists and agnostics are trying to expand and diversify their ranks."

Apparently you are now to be known as "Nones" (Not nuns)

"The religiously unaffiliated, called "nones," are growing significantly. They’re the second largest religious group in North America and most of Europe. In the United States, nones make up almost a quarter of the population. In the past decade, U.S. nones have overtaken Catholics, mainline protestants, and all followers of non-Christian faiths."
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RE: Arguments against existence of God.
You might want to look up the definition of 'dogma'. Last I checked, atheists haven't rallied around Carrier as an authority on all things atheist. And not all atheists are metaphysical naturalists.
Reply
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 6:37 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: You might want to look up the definition of 'dogma'. Last I checked, atheists haven't rallied around Carrier as an authority on all things atheist. And not all atheists are metaphysical naturalists.

You don't need all of them.  You have a diversified group of "atheists" that do follow him.  Similar to a church "denomination", but now it's with atheists.

Definition #3 from dictionary.com for dogma.

"prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: "

Do you have a preferred dictionary?  Just making sure.  I usually use this or MW.  Just don't want to get in a disagreement over dictionaries. Smile
Reply
RE: Arguments against existence of God.
(December 5, 2018 at 6:40 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:
(December 5, 2018 at 6:37 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: You might want to look up the definition of 'dogma'. Last I checked, atheists haven't rallied around Carrier as an authority on all things atheist. And not all atheists are metaphysical naturalists.

You don't need all of them.  You have a diversified group of "atheists" that do follow him.  Similar to a church "denomination", but now it's with atheists.

Enjoy your hobby horse.

Meanwhile, we'll await your religion's evidence.
Reply



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