Posts: 67196
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 8:06 am
You act as if that's somehow winnowed down the ridiculous things you believe.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 16972
Threads: 461
Joined: March 29, 2015
Reputation:
30
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 1:12 pm
That's the thing: Koran is not unaltered. For instance, in 1972, construction workers who were restoring the Mosque of Sana’a in Yemen discovered pages of the Koran dating back to the 7th and 8th centuries, many of which contained passages that differed from the canonical and universally accepted Koran.
http://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=180
Which is quite a challenge to the Muslim assumption that the Koran is the perfect book of Allah, sent from Paradise in perfect form and preserved without any variants or modifications at all.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Posts: 67196
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 1:18 pm
Not really. Their version was preserved in such a manner. Such is the true value of faithful preservation.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 16972
Threads: 461
Joined: March 29, 2015
Reputation:
30
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 1:39 pm
(April 20, 2020 at 1:18 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Not really. Their version was preserved in such a manner. Such is the true value of faithful preservation.
But the scholars say it is different, like
Quote:While the upper text is almost identical with the modern Qur'ans in use (with the exception of spelling variants), the lower text contains significant diversions from the standard text. [...] Comparing it with parallel textual traditions provides a unique window onto the initial state of the text from which the different traditions emerged.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Posts: 67196
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 2:05 pm
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2020 at 2:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Yeah...the scholars. The ones who talk about winged horses and magic carpet rides. I'm unimpressed.
Yes...ofc a religious tradition has a defined period of development. When ideas change and ultimately calcify into what we see then or today. I'm trying to be as generous as I can imagine.
If the magic book worshipers managed to get every jot and tittle the same in every copy, it doesn't matter. The thing that I doubt isn't the ability of editors to enforce style guidelines.
It's the underlying claim.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 3989
Threads: 79
Joined: June 30, 2009
Reputation:
41
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 20, 2020 at 4:02 pm
Wait I can clear up this thread. The OP misspelled Karen.
Posts: 16972
Threads: 461
Joined: March 29, 2015
Reputation:
30
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 21, 2020 at 3:43 pm
(April 20, 2020 at 2:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yeah...the scholars. The ones who talk about winged horses and magic carpet rides. I'm unimpressed.
Yes...ofc a religious tradition has a defined period of development. When ideas change and ultimately calcify into what we see then or today. I'm trying to be as generous as I can imagine.
If the magic book worshipers managed to get every jot and tittle the same in every copy, it doesn't matter. The thing that I doubt isn't the ability of editors to enforce style guidelines.
It's the underlying claim.
But from what I understand Muslims claim that Koran was always same without what you call "period of development" and these books that were found were considered to be Koran although they differ from one that exists now.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Posts: 67196
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
April 21, 2020 at 3:46 pm
Muslims claim an awful lot of things.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
