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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 2, 2022 at 4:41 pm
(This post was last modified: June 2, 2022 at 5:14 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(June 2, 2022 at 4:03 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: And yet there are creatures with both instinct and initiative that we do not take to be moral agents.
Moral agency, as we describe and understand it - is a high bar. Maybe limited just to us and things like us. That’s assuming that there are potential moral observations as a matter of fact, for things like us to see….in the first place.
That’s the entirety of natures contribution to moral values and moral agency, from a realists pov. Giving us eyes to see.
That’s the topline to the opq ( good riddance, fucking moron ). Being able to produce the tools or structures required to assess the other thing…even if the other thing is there( really there) in the absence of such possessions.
I think we unnecessarily complicate and confuse the discussion by introducing the somewhat legalistic concept of agency. Agency seems to me to really be a mental social model that is useful for deciding where to apply social pressure to effectively influence the actions of others. If the others have agency, then you can influence them through social means. It does not help with any Un-presupposing approach to exploring the fundamental roots of actions.
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 2, 2022 at 5:35 pm
Rightly…..or wrongly.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 3, 2022 at 10:43 am
(June 2, 2022 at 2:42 pm)Angrboda Wrote: If evolution had depended upon our agency to accomplish the goal of morals, our species would have perished.
The conundrum for those that believe that our morals are an evolved response is that our agency is no longer required.
Are these two statements not in conflict with each other?
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 3, 2022 at 11:12 am
(This post was last modified: June 3, 2022 at 11:13 am by Aegon.)
(May 27, 2022 at 11:47 pm)chiknsld Wrote: We cannot get our morality from evolution because evolution does not care about how we treat others. Also, it makes no sense that we have instincts therefore it makes more sense that God wanted us to have instincts. Evolution only starts with life, which makes no sense, it should show how inanimate matter turns into life as well. Also, if evolution has all this power then where does evolution come from?
Actually, humans evolved to be social creatures that assist one another in the survival process. Loneliness is associated with depression because our physical brains are programmed to be with other humans. One could certainly argue that friendships, relationships, and other forms of affection - and thus empathy - are a result of evolution.
But regardless, I think you're thinking about this wrong... on a fundamental level.
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 3, 2022 at 11:23 am
(June 3, 2022 at 11:12 am)Aegon Wrote: (May 27, 2022 at 11:47 pm)chiknsld Wrote: We cannot get our morality from evolution because evolution does not care about how we treat others. Also, it makes no sense that we have instincts therefore it makes more sense that God wanted us to have instincts. Evolution only starts with life, which makes no sense, it should show how inanimate matter turns into life as well. Also, if evolution has all this power then where does evolution come from?
Actually, humans evolved to be social creatures that assist one another in the survival process. Loneliness is associated with depression because our physical brains are programmed to be with other humans. One could certainly argue that friendships, relationships, and other forms of affection - and thus empathy - are a result of evolution.
But regardless, I think you're thinking about this wrong... on a fundamental level.
You think depression is real?
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 3, 2022 at 11:28 am
(This post was last modified: June 3, 2022 at 11:29 am by Nay_Sayer.)
(June 3, 2022 at 11:23 am)chiknsld Wrote: (June 3, 2022 at 11:12 am)Aegon Wrote: Actually, humans evolved to be social creatures that assist one another in the survival process. Loneliness is associated with depression because our physical brains are programmed to be with other humans. One could certainly argue that friendships, relationships, and other forms of affection - and thus empathy - are a result of evolution.
But regardless, I think you're thinking about this wrong... on a fundamental level.
You think depression is real?
You're a troll and a moron.
RAmen
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming" -The Prophet Boiardi-
Conservative trigger warning.
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 3, 2022 at 4:15 pm
(June 3, 2022 at 10:43 am)chiknsld Wrote: (June 2, 2022 at 2:42 pm)Angrboda Wrote: If evolution had depended upon our agency to accomplish the goal of morals, our species would have perished.
The conundrum for those that believe that our morals are an evolved response is that our agency is no longer required.
Are these two statements not in conflict with each other?
Not that I'm aware of. Perhaps you could explain why you think that they are.
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 4, 2022 at 10:20 am
(June 3, 2022 at 11:23 am)chiknsld Wrote: (June 3, 2022 at 11:12 am)Aegon Wrote: Actually, humans evolved to be social creatures that assist one another in the survival process. Loneliness is associated with depression because our physical brains are programmed to be with other humans. One could certainly argue that friendships, relationships, and other forms of affection - and thus empathy - are a result of evolution.
But regardless, I think you're thinking about this wrong... on a fundamental level.
You think depression is real?
Lmaooooo. What do you mean by "real?" Am I going to have to explain basic psychology to you?
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 6, 2022 at 2:47 pm
(This post was last modified: June 6, 2022 at 2:48 pm by chiknsld.)
(June 4, 2022 at 10:20 am)Aegon Wrote: (June 3, 2022 at 11:23 am)chiknsld Wrote: You think depression is real?
Lmaooooo. What do you mean by "real?" Am I going to have to explain basic psychology to you?
Well considering that my degree is in psychology, I do not believe that would help your argument. Are you aware that many people do not believe that depression is real?
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RE: Evolution cannot account for morality
June 6, 2022 at 2:53 pm
(June 6, 2022 at 2:47 pm)chiknsld Wrote: Are you aware that many people do not believe that depression is real?
Yeah, like Scientologists.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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