(March 14, 2023 at 11:08 pm)Helios Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 9:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Your weapons?  What weapons...you're fucking canadian....?

Actually were sending quite a few things to Ukraine. Especially armored support vehicles. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nati...raine.html

Your canadia may be, but IA's canadia certainly aint. 

(March 14, 2023 at 11:30 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 11:08 pm)Helios Wrote: Actually The Canadian Military is sending quite a few things to Ukraine. Especially armored support vehicles. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nati...raine.html

Your canadia may be, but IA's canadia certainly aint. 

True I stand corrected

(March 14, 2023 at 9:56 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Actually, if nukes are used, which is unlikely, but if they are,

....and still you like to throw te ukrainian nation under the bus. You are even more of a coward as i previously thought. Or liar? Or Both?

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 4:18 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru

The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

There are people on the other side of the Atlantic who share your concerns. Even in Germany there is a group of people who are asking the question “How does this war end?”
 
I personally think that you and these people are simply overestimating the capacities of Russia. Today’s Russia is not the Soviet Union. It is also not the new / dynamic and growing economy of the early 2000’s (even that was a myth in many ways). Todays Russia is a country that is about to be booted from the UN Security Council because it simply lacks the legal requirements:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/danger-russia...46049.html
 
That’s my first point. Second point: History shows that if you turn a blind eye on such people (like they did to Mussolini and Hitler in the 30’s) they’ll keep getting hungrier and greedier. You know Hitler could have been easily stopped as soon as he started rebuilding the German Army (illegally at the time) and stationing (illegally) permanent troops in Rhineland. But the French decided to ignore him so he kept growing until he annexed Poland together with Stalin. Than you had 50 million deaths. So you cogitate on the results of a similar approach with a nuclear power like Russia.
 
3) If you don’t stop Putin in Ukraine, you can already present Taiwan to Xi-Ji-Ping on a silver plate while you’re on it.
 
4) It’s a matter of ideology. 24 million Taiwanese is not a significant number of people when compared with China that has a population of 2 billion. Yet, these 24 million people do not want the Tyranny of the CCP. Nor do Belarussians want to “reunite” with Russia.
 
But yes. This last one is a personal choice. You totally have the right to say “not my problem”. I just wanted you to see the whole picture before you say that

(March 14, 2023 at 9:40 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 7:53 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: It was so nice of Bel to hand the Baton of BS off to IA.

I just came into the thread to correct Thump who besmirched my name by saying I was wrong about the peace deal being scuttled by NATO. And now, Thump's new claim is that the former PM of Israel knows nothing about what's going on in the world, and that we have to take world leaders words like that with a grain of salt, proving that Thump knows even less about the world than I thought he did before. He's absolutely clueless.

And as far as accusations by Helios like saying I want Ukraine to bend over and give up, I didn't write any such thing. Ukrainians can fight all they'd like and I respect whatever decision they make. I just don't see it as my fight. They can fight all they want, without my weapons. NATO protections are my privilege, not theirs, and they are not to be handed out like candy. No, Ukrainians don't get special treatment from me because they have blonde hair and blue eyes. I can't help bring freedom to the people of Uganda, Yemen, North Korea, and the people of over 100 other nations, so yeah, I'm kind of just treating Ukraine with equality here, while people go on the news talking about how sad it is to see a country of blue eyed people under attack.

On cultural / ethnic differences:
 
As far as I know, the Europeans were ready to intervene during the Syrian war at some point between 2012 and 2015 and were waiting for a sign from the Obama administration. So originally this was going to be the spot where Putin’s expansionist ambitions were going to be stopped. But there was a change of plan and they didn’t do it.
 
2) You cannot compare everything with everything else. The NATO intervention in Korea seems to have had a positive outcome. The US intervention in Vietnam doesn’t. The Russian intervention in Afghanistan could have paid off well (that’s my point of view) but it became something no one is able to solve even today because of US weapons that were delivered to the Talibans (which were used against US forces two decades later). Another completely messed up policy is the middle-east in general. I think it’s up to political scientists to deliver logical explanations on these issues.
 
I personally think that our moral obligation to support Ukrainians comes from this: See, The Afghan president just picked his car, his dollars and fled to India when the Taliban came. All that US cash and military equipment just went to corruption. For whatever reason, no one fired a single shot on these monsters when they simply took the country without any form resistance. It was like the people wanted the Taliban. So although it was not my tax money, I don’t really get what the US did in that place during 20 years. I simply don’t get it
 
Ukraine is different. You could not help them now. Then they would still fight and the result would be something like Belarus, with Russia threatening Baltic countries, Georgia, Poland, Moldova etc. But they would still be resisting in some way so the result would be another Syria-like region that is being thorn out by inner conflicts for the decades to come.
 
So if you want stability in Europe (and that’s also in your interest) you have to neutralize Russia there, in one way or the other. Or that’s how I see it

(March 14, 2023 at 11:21 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:I just came into the thread to correct Thump who besmirched my name by saying I was wrong about the peace deal being scuttled by NATO. And now, Thump's new claim is that the former PM of Israel knows nothing about what's going on in the world, and that we have to take world leaders words like that with a grain of salt, proving that Thump knows even less about the world than I thought he did before. He's absolutely clueless.

You were wrong anyway moron so Thump did nothing of the kind, And the rest of your strawmen aren't even worth bothering with 

Quote:And as far as accusations by Helios like saying I want Ukraine to bend over and give up, I didn't write any such thing. 

Yeah, you pretty much did. And pretty much have.

Quote:Ukrainians can fight all they'd like and I respect whatever decision they make. 

Bullshit 

Quote:I just don't see it as my fight. They can fight all they want, without my weapons. 

Then you're an idiot and they aren't your weapons to keep or give away. 

Quote:NATO protections are my privilege,not theirs,  and they are not to be handed out like candy. No, Ukrainians don't get special treatment from me because they have blonde hair and blue eyes. I can't help bring freedom to the people of Uganda, Yemen, North Korea, and the people of over 100 other nations, so yeah, I'm kind of just treating Ukraine with equality here, while people go on the news talking about how sad it is to see a country of blue eyed people under attack

Nope, they are whoever NATO decides has that privilege you aren't in charge of NATO so your thoughts on who gets protection means fuck all. And this is such a pathetic out. The idea you can't save every country means you shouldn't save any countries. You not treating anyone with equality or any kind of higher principle you are simply an apathist clown making excuses. And trying to imply this is about race. Holy shit you are delusional


So again IA shows what a clown he is

Thump didn't question what the Israeli PM said. He and I are in agreement on that, so that's a you problem. Thump only argued that the Israeli PM wouldn't be privy to that kind of information, because he's Israeli and not British or American or Ukrainian. I, on the other hand, tend to think the former Israeli PM would be very much privy to that information if he wanted to know it.

And Tomato brought up race, so why are you calling out me for that rather than Tomato? Think, my dude. Call out Tomato for taking it there, not me. I just responded to his little clownish insult he made because he's still uppity about me pointing out how gross it was for him to try to imply that self defense = dragging someone on the ground and assaulting them after they've tried to run away. If it was a video of two kids having a fist fight, then fine, question what caused the fight, but when someone is dragged on the ground running away, there is zero way Tomato can try to spin that around into a case of self defense. Now, I hope we're done talking about that news story and we can move on, and I shouldn't even be posting this now as I'm just falling for Tomato baiting me into talking about it more. So, that's the end of talking about that story. Now, moving on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=pU-8gKaUO_Y


You only care about Ukraine because it's next to Russia. That's it. If you have Ukrainian blood in you and I don't know about it, I'll take that remark back and apologize, but as of now, my stance is that you only care because they're next to Russia. I don't think you care about Ukrainians being white, but many do care about that.

And Nudge was entirely correct, I must say, when he brought up that many alt-righters just admire Putin because they think he's based. Many of the alt-righters who were once arguing against Islam, are now kind of starting to turn around and say, maybe the Muslims were the based ones all along. I'm talking about the Andrew Tate or incelly type of alt-righters. They're starting to think the Muslims have it right when it comes to keeping the women at home, not allowing them to drive or vote, etc. Putting the clamps down on public displays of homosexuality like some Muslim countries and Putin do. Absolutely real phenomena Nudge was talking about, but if he thinks that's me I just have to laugh. Me, of all people, likes to see gay people getting beaten up in the streets of Russia by bigoted Catholic Russians? I see that and my response is, Putin is so based and bad ass? Not quite. That's not me.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 10:04 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Nah the Canadian gov can't get towtrucks unless they enact the Emergencies Act. Our towtrucks are owned by the good patriotic Canadians who refused to tow away the truckers until they were threatened under the emergencies act. I'm talking about war tanks.

Yes...you're talking about war tanks which are not yours.  They are not your weapons.  Not only did you not design them, you had to ask for permission to even given them away.  You make your own country the punchline of a joke.  Gratz.

Fair enough. But I have NATO privilege, so you have to protect me, daddy. You take care of me so well.

(March 15, 2023 at 3:41 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 9:56 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Actually, if nukes are used, which is unlikely, but if they are,

....and still you like to throw te ukrainian nation under the bus. You are even more of a coward as i previously thought. Or liar? Or Both?

Words like unlikely and likely mean very little on their own. If there is even a 1 percent chance or .5 % chance Russia uses nukes, that's a big enough chance for me to take serious note. I think in terms of the long game. If we keep having nuclear showdowns like this where there's even a .5 percent chance something happens, and we do this over and over again for the next thousand years or two thousand years or 5 thousand years, then eventually, shit hits the fan and it's mutually assured destruction, and it's game over. That's why I take nukes seriously. Not because Russia is going to bomb me and end my life. I don't think of things in those terms. I don't fear death. I'm ready if today is my day. I have seriously bad anxiety, so I fear life more than death. Dying at the hands of a nuke is the last thing I'm personally worried about lol.

Edit: And I forgot to mention the prospect of a country being under the false impression that they are being nuked, and then responding in kind. We've had close calls before. That Russian dude saved us by not firing off that nuke when he was ordered to. Shit like that happens as well, and we are so lucky that that man decided to not fire the nuke.

(March 15, 2023 at 5:17 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 10:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes...you're talking about war tanks which are not yours.  They are not your weapons.  Not only did you not design them, you had to ask for permission to even given them away.  You make your own country the punchline of a joke.  Gratz.

Fair enough. But I have NATO privilege, so you have to protect me, daddy. You take care of me so well.

The only inalienable right a soldier has is the right to fail.  That's worth keeping in mind, especially if you're the kind of person who, in life as on the boards, makes it known you wouldn't lift a finger to defend someone else, thinks it's wrong to help those people, and even think that their invaders have moral warrant.  People like that have a tendency of finding themselves surrounded by people who could take care of them, are even supposed to take care of them, but elect not to.

What do you think the us should do if the uk asserts a territorial and adminstrative claim over canadia? Occupies your block, loots your room, declares martial law, punishes "bigoted" speech with internment, conscripts you as proxy infantry against your own territorial defense forces? Should we get out of the uks way? Should we send them more missiles when they ask? Should we offer the use of our own forces at your open southern border?

(March 15, 2023 at 6:42 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

There are people on the other side of the Atlantic who share your concerns. Even in Germany there is a group of people who are asking the question “How does this war end?”
 
I personally think that you and these people are simply overestimating the capacities of Russia. Today’s Russia is not the Soviet Union. It is also not the new / dynamic and growing economy of the early 2000’s (even that was a myth in many ways). Todays Russia is a country that is about to be booted from the UN Security Council because it simply lacks the legal requirements:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/danger-russia...46049.html
 
That’s my first point. Second point: History shows that if you turn a blind eye on such people (like they did to Mussolini and Hitler in the 30’s) they’ll keep getting hungrier and greedier. You know Hitler could have been easily stopped as soon as he started rebuilding the German Army (illegally at the time) and stationing (illegally) permanent troops in Rhineland. But the French decided to ignore him so he kept growing until he annexed Poland together with Stalin. Than you had 50 million deaths. So you cogitate on the results of a similar approach with a nuclear power like Russia.
 
3) If you don’t stop Putin in Ukraine, you can already present Taiwan to Xi-Ji-Ping on a silver plate while you’re on it.
 
4) It’s a matter of ideology. 24 million Taiwanese is not a significant number of people when compared with China that has a population of 2 billion. Yet, these 24 million people do not want the Tyranny of the CCP. Nor do Belarussians want to “reunite” with Russia.
 
But yes. This last one is a personal choice. You totally have the right to say “not my problem”. I just wanted you to see the whole picture before you say that

I don't think I'm overestimating Russia. They are in a very embarrassing spot right now, for sure. What reason do they have to not drag the war on for years though, at this point, given that NATO now says Ukraine is joining? Putin has no incentive to stop the war. Ethinc Russians are dying out, and Putin may very well see his life and survival being on the line. And how is China going to react to NATO growing stronger and clamping down on powers like Russia? Well, right now China is saying, continue with what you're doing, and there will be conflict, so you can look at it both ways. If Russia won in Ukraine, that might embolden China, sure, but with NATO clamping down on Russia, that may scare the Chinese into acting and doing what you say you are worried they might do in Taiwan/ the South China Sea.

Thanks for your post. I appreciate that you stuck to making your argument rather than just throwing out a bunch of insults like the others, and you certainly made some good points.