So, you don't actually consider both sides of this issue at all, do you? You reserve the right to consider both sides of this issue, and have decided, at least in this case(and at least for now), not to do so. Would that be fair to say?

What are his opinions, the ones you respect?

(February 11, 2012 at 1:42 pm)chipan Wrote: again, you should read the bible. hell was mentioned before the time of Jesus. Deuteronomy 32:22, psalm, proverbs, etc. and hell is simply the absence of everything that is good. when you take everything good from this world all you have left is hell.

Incorrect. The concept of hell did not exist until the New Testament. Sheol isn't even remotely close to being the same concept as hell. This is a widely recognized fact, even by Christians.

Also, don't be an arrogant twat. I have studied the entirety of the Bible many times over.

(February 11, 2012 at 1:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, you don't actually consider both sides of this issue at all, do you? You reserve the right to consider both sides of this issue, and have decided, at least in this case(and at least for now), not to do so. Would that be fair to say?

What are his opinions, the ones you respect?

no. i continually look at both sides. i don't look at everything but i'm also not gonna devote my life to it. there are billions of people in the world and i can't listen to all of them.

(February 11, 2012 at 12:51 pm)chipan Wrote: i believe science is important but at the same time be looked at in a skeptical mannor.

So why don't you look at the bible in a skeptical manner then?

Are you afraid you'll be condemned to eternal hell if you dare to challenge that bible might not be the word of God?

Of are you simply so enthralled by the lust for the possibility of a promised life in some supposedly eternal paradise that you don't want to take the chance of not buying a lottery ticket for that prize (i.e. questioning the very lottery itself by questioning the Bible)?

For me it's extremely simple. The Hebrew mythology has no more merit than Greek Mythology and it's not the slightest bit any more reasonable.

In fact, in order to believe in the bible you are forced to believe that a supposedly all-benevolent and infinitely wise created can only think of truly stupid, ignorant, and vile solutions to all his problems. Moreover, his solution NEVER WORK in these stories. So much for wisdom.

Think about it.

In the garden of Eden Satan as a serpent beguiled Eve into eating a forbidden fruit.

You claim to believe these stories literally. Well what does the Bible say that God did?

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

First off, if the wages of sin (disobedience of God) is death, then why didn't this God just strike the serpent dead on the spot? Secondly how is making it crawl on it's belly and eat dust "solving" anything?

Finally, it clearly didn't stop this evil Satan because he supposedly continued to wreck havoc with people and tempt them to this very day. So it didn't even work as a solution. It would have been a totally ineffective solution to the problem and serve no one any good. Not the serpent, not mankind, and certainly not God. It would have been a totally ignorant and ineffective action for this supposedly 'all-wise' God to have taken.

Then this God turns to Eve and says:

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again look at the violence. He's going to multiply the woman's sorrow in conception and childbirth. (and evidently this applies to all women for all of time and is supposedly why childbirth is so painful for a woman)

And in the same punishment he condones male-chauvinism by demanding that the woman's desire shall be to her husband and that he shall rule over the woman as his wife!

Do modern Christians today truly believe that a man should rule over his wife? I don't think so. Most rational Christians today don't condone that sort of emotional and psychological male-chauvinistic fascism in the name of God.

And also, again, what did this action by god "solve? Evidently it didn't solve anything. Was it violent and cruel? Sure it was. Cursing women with sorrowful conception and childbirth is downright ignorant, IMHO. It's the kind of solution I would expect to come from an ignorant barroom drunkard, certainly not from a supposedly all-wise all-loving God.

And where are we going with this? This story of Adam and Eve is the very foundation of this religion and supposedly the very basis for why we all need to seek repentance.

Then later this God deals with sin by supposedly drowning out the bulk of mankind and saving a handful of sinners in the form of Noah and his family. Noah and his family cannot have been without sin because that flies in the face of the idea that no man is without sin. So God supposedly selectively chose a few sinners to save whilst drowning out all the rest.

But then what happens in the New Testament? For God so loved the world he gives his only begotten son so that sinners might live?

That's a total about face. A total chance in character which this God is not suppose to do. So he didn't love the world back in the days of the flood enough to send his son back then? In fact, if he truly loved mankind why didn't he just present Jesus to Adam and Eve and let them decide whether or not they would like to ask for forgiveness and Grace?

And then of course the whole crucifixion things is just yet more violence, blood and guts. This God can't seem to solve any problem at all without extreme gore. And did that even solve anything? Well evidently it didn't.

Supposedly Satan is still actively corrupting people and nothing has changed. Nothing has been solved. Moreover, even according to Jesus (if you believe in these fables) only few will make it into the Kingdom of God because the gate is narrow and the path is straight and few will make it.

That's amounts to nothing more than Jesus himself proclaiming that this God is a loser God. As a creator he loses the vast majority of souls that he creates. That's an extremely inefficient and "Far from Perfect" creator.

Also, if this God has some sort of bet going with Satan that Satan can't win souls from him, guess what? According to Jesus Satan is wining that bet and that war hands down!

So I don't even need science to recognize that these biblical stories are utter nonsense. They are about as stupid as they can be.

Even if we had no scientific knowledge at all, I would still reject the Hebrew fables as being utterly absurd.

They cannot possibly be stories about a supposedly all-wise and all-benevolent God because they simply aren't even remotely wise nor do they even hint of benevolence. They are nothing other than the epitome of stupidity and ignorance.

And that's why I reject them with no problem at all.

No science required. They are just plain stupid on their own.
They totally spit in the face of anything that could be considered "wise" or "benevolent"
They are as ignorant and cruel as they can possibly be.
So it's utterly stupid to think that they could be the "all-wise" words of an "all-benevolent" God.
Hebrew mythology shoots itself in its own foot.
No need for scientific investigation into the matter.
It's clearly idiocy on its own. Period Amen.

(February 11, 2012 at 1:56 pm)RW_9 Wrote:

(February 11, 2012 at 1:42 pm)chipan Wrote: again, you should read the bible. hell was mentioned before the time of Jesus. Deuteronomy 32:22, psalm, proverbs, etc. and hell is simply the absence of everything that is good. when you take everything good from this world all you have left is hell.

Incorrect. The concept of hell did not exist until the New Testament. Sheol isn't even remotely close to being the same concept as hell. This is a widely recognized fact, even by Christians.

Also, don't be an arrogant twat. I have studied the entirety of the Bible many times over.

Deuteronomy 32:22 Wrote:For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

(February 11, 2012 at 1:58 pm)chipan Wrote: no. i continually look at both sides. i don't look at everything but i'm also not gonna devote my life to it. there are billions of people in the world and i can't listen to all of them.

Good thing I didn't ask you to consider the opinions of billions of people then eh? You set the criteria, I showed you someone who meets those criteria. Your court, your ball, your game.

Deuteronomy 32:22 Wrote:For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

In the OT, the Hebrew word "Sheol" is used, and in modern English versions of the Bible it is translated as hell. The word Sheol means "land of the dead" or "resting place." In the NT, the modern concept of hell was introduced via the Arabic word "Gehenna," which was a fiery resting place for the dead. The modern concept of hell as a lake of fire and punishment for the dead was not introduced until the NT.

I wish I was able to find a post of mine from awhile back with regards to hell, so I could just link this nutter and educate him. I don't have the energy to type it all out again.
(the quality of my posts have been declining proportionate to how many times I've had to repeat myself...lol)

(February 11, 2012 at 2:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I wish I was able to find a post of mine from awhile back with regards to hell, so I could just link this nutter and educate him. I don't have the energy to type it all out again.
(the quality of my posts have been declining proportionate to how many times I've had to repeat myself...lol)

Meh, I gave him the basics. If he continues to argue after my little excerpt, there's no point in continuing. It's such a widely recognized issue even among Christians that it is pointless to discuss with someone who apparently hasn't even studied his own holy text and doctrines.

(February 11, 2012 at 2:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (the quality of my posts have been declining proportionate to how many times I've had to repeat myself...lol)

I feel the same way. In fact, I keep promising myself that I'm going to start a file of "perfected posts". Answers to standard questions that keep coming up over and over again.

I wouldn't let these files become stagnant. But instead of typing from scratch every time I could just pull up my previous answers to these questions. Re-read them myself as both a 'proof-read' and to modify any details to reflect my current deeper understanding of them.

But unfortunately I never got around to starting such an archive. But in truth that really would be a super great thing to do. Imagine the amount of typing it would save as the years pass. (ha ha)

Not only that, but if your thoughts are well-organized, you could give them chapter headings and ultimately publish a book based purely on your responses to questions posed on internet forums. So it's a double-winning idea.