(August 13, 2012 at 12:48 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Describe to me a world in which utopia and free will coexist.

Hmmmm....

Then, by what you say here, there can be no free will in heaven.

(August 13, 2012 at 1:32 am)Skepsis Wrote: We aren't free to choose if it is all in a plan from the beginning of time.

The plan was to provide Choice. Or to provide an oppertunity to choose. the plan wasn't to force everyone to Choose Heaven.

Quote:Is this command theory attached to justice instead of morality? Justice is a concept that relies on a judge (a person, etc) to determine fair retribution. What can never be fair is a finite crime punished with an infinite sentence. Whether or not you want to define "justice" into oblivion is none of my concern.

You making my case for me. In that you see 'justic' as what you or someone who has authority over you thinks to be fair. This judgement is always based on incomplete information. God's Judgement is complete and complies with a absolute righteous standard. In other words God's judgement may not be fair to everyone.

Quote:I'll say it again: A just God couldn't punish someone for a finite crime with infinite punishment. Nothing you can do in 5 years, 10 years, a million years can earn you infinite punishment. You know how big 1 trillion is to infinity? It isn't even a fraction, not even a slice of the pie. You are no closer to finishing your sentence than a trillion years before that.
This is the definition of injustice.

What if one chooses to be eternally seperated from God? Is God to drag them kicking and screaming into Heaven?

Quote:If I don't believe in God and am later sent to hell for it, I am being punished. I don't see an alternative.

Belief in god is not the deciding factor of Heaven or Hell. For we are told even the Demons believe." And yet they are not welcome into Heaven. Love (as God outlines it) is what makes us acceptiable for God to accept our belief.

Quote:On choice, I thought you said it was all in his plan? If it is his plan that I choose something and not another thing, then I never had a choice to begin with.

Choice only requires one alternitive to the situation you are facing. you have a choice you do not have an abundance of choice.

Quote:According to you, no I didn't. I am simply following his master plan.

Again "the Master plan" was to give you the oppertunity to Choose, not that you make a specific choice.

Quote:Special pleading. I can't choose anything else besides whether or not I need to be redeemed for sins that I was forced to commit by a plan that the very one requiring redemption set out for me? How do you not read the things you are typing and see them for what they are? Is this the true power of indoctrination?

define 'the plan' as you understand it. If you understand the plan then you can not claim this fallacy.

Quote:You have failed to justify why you can choose redemption but not anything else.

Because No other Choices are given!
Live in sin or be redeemed from it. It is an either or. There are no other options.

Quote:I'll share with you an anecdote, if that is ok. It has to do with prayer, so don't rage too hard.
When I was 5 years younger at the age of 13, I believed in God. I read the Bible, albeit minimally. I didn't attend church, but justified it with the "God is in my heart, so I won't bother getting dressed up for a social event" line. I began to doubt towards my 14th birthday.

So you are making a desision that will echo through out eternity for the half hearted effort you put into makeing a desision when you were 13. (Not raging here I just want you to take an honest look.) did you have a girlfriend when you were 13? Do you have one now? If we made all of our life's desisions based on the half hearted efforts we made when we were 13 year old then we'd all die from infections we got from over Masterbation.

If your social life has improved in the last 5 years, Then how is it a good idea to base not only your whole life, but your eternal one as well, on the efforts you put fourth to know God when you were 13?

Quote:Remember, I already believed in God. I spent days, even weeks praying that he might enlighten me to his presence, to show me he existed. I begged and pleaded that he would just flip a switch in my head that allowed me to see I was being a fool for doubting things that I had believed so willingly all my life before.
Nothing happened. No enlightenment, no switch flipped.

how could you possiably know what happened?
You haven't lived long enough yet. The only think you proved is that God has not conceeded to the time line you have set before Him.
I will be 37 in a few days and I am just now starting to see How God answered prayers I made when I was 18. So to Say God did not answer a prayer in your time frame... Know that He seldom does.

Quote: I eventually turned to all Gods, hoping that one would answer me with something. I am not a stupid person, so if I asked God to show me a sign I knew what I should expect from him, and it wasn't my school project on the computer deleting itself (later found it, deleted by... me), it wasn't finding a dollar I had used as a bookmark in years passed. I never did get an answer in any form ever. Eventually they led me to become more comfortable with my skepticism and my skepticism led me to my atheism.

how do you know this is not an answer to your prayer in of itself?
You wanted 'proof' of God what if proof could only be provided if first you had to absolve questions you could not ask because of some misunderstood 'respect' you gave the church that was not needed? What if your journey into Atheism was the only way you could resolve these issues, and accept the proof God would provide?

God yeild results, not the journeys we want to take.

Quote:So, why didn't my desperate appeal to any God to make his presence known fail? I already believed, I was hardly testing God. I just wanted him to confirm my belief. Why didn't he comfort me and show me my path was correct?

Have you considered it was not correct? You were wanting God to confirm a faith based in magic and wonder. God defines and outlines Faith in Hebrews 11. What you were doing was not 'on path faith.'

Quote:Anyway, I don't disbelieve today because God didn't answer my plead to enlighten me, but more because there is no evidence at all for his existence, so don't think that I gave up my belief for a failed prayer.

Luke 11 perscribes a plan/path will give you all the evidence you need.

will finish post laster..

(August 13, 2012 at 1:32 am)Skepsis Wrote: I never said you were wrong, I certainly don't send money oversees. But I do offer charity work for war vets and those that benefit the community. I am 18 and my time was and will be very valuable. I don't currently have money to give to anyone, just time. And I do offer that in places that I can. Don't assume that I am self-absorbed, because I am not.

No judgement intended. I just made an observation. In that you did not carry yourself nor had any 'scars' of one who had spent a great deal of time helping people like the boy pictured. Yet you were ready and willing to judge God for something you yourself have never done.

This is critical, because we are told that we will be judged according to how we judge others. Meaning if you are to judge God for not helping then you yourself better have that base covered.

Quote:You are sitting here on a computer when you could be doing any number of things to help others.

Actually no I couldn't. (If I am to remain faithful to what i have been given) This is my all in all, I will not brag about what I do, just know that I can not do any more, and I take what little free time I do have and give the lion's share over to you people and a few others in places like this.

Quote: Guaranteed.
I am not saying you're selfish for not doing this; in fact, I commend you, as you are far more selfless than I if what you say is true. Still, don't act like you have precedence over me when we are both currently sitting at a computer, looking at a screen.

It's not what you do compared to another that makes your deeds count for the glory of God, it is the condition of one's heart when one is performing that deed. (there is a parable Christ uses to explain this very thing.)

Quote:The power of imagination takes your attention from actually helping those in need?

Are you saying that people who come here are less important in God's eyes than those who physically suffer? Who (in the light of eternity) is better off? The one who suffers for 70 years physically, and sits at the right hand of Christ for his suffering brought him Spiritual prosperity. Or the one who is indulged physically, and is lost to eternity?

From God's persepective the one who starves spiritually and is indulged physically suffers the greatest.

Quote:I guarantee you that most everyone here is not spiritually starved as you suggest.

I am spiritually starved from thor zeus and allah, and yet i do not sit around with like minded suffers and plot ways to increase my suffering..

Yet here is a web site One of many who's titled purpose is to allow a place for people who supposedly do not believe in God an oppertunity to catagorize all the ways they do not believe.. Why is this needed if one truly does not believe? I do not believe in a great number of things. None of which warrant 15 mins of my time over the entire course of my life time. Yet there are people here who have spent thousands of post and hundreds of hours trying to convince themselves that they do not believe. If you do not believe then remain silent. your silence speaks volumes, while your lengthy objections only say one thing....

Quote:We get along just fine without your God, and because you will never be able to prove that he exists in a way that satisfies anyone other than the gullible, I won't be the first to tell you that you are wasting your time.

I have never claimed that i can prove the existance of God. nochristian can to another person. But God can and every Christ can point you in the direction to find God for yourself, if you truly want said proof.

Quote: I assure you, time spent consoling the poor and feeding the hungry is much better spent than the spiritual counseling you provide here. Still, I enjoy the banter and wouldn't want to see you go. Keep that in mind.

I do not need to go anywhere that I haven't already been.

Quote:Anyone can spend time on this site.

without doubt. But few can accuratly repersent the bible and still navigate these waters semi responsiably. many people in the christian community considerpeople who fancy themselves to be anti God or 'Atheist' to be beyond the need for help. If I had not come from where I came from I would probably think the same.However, Someone took the time to Help me and answered my irreverant questions, and it changed my life. Now I am doing what I can to offer the same service, even though all of my short commings. (Temper, pride, spelling and gramitical errors.)

Quote:I found it rather accessible myself, with the fact that it is one of the first two Google results for "atheist forums". If you feel you are capable of "feeding the Spiritually Hungry" then I assume you believe you can prove God? Where is the thread that you took care of this little tidbit, then?

I can not proove anything, but that is the wonderful thing. I don't have to. For God promsies 'Proof' for all who Ask, Seek, and Knock as outlined in Luke 11.

Quote:I'll go ahead and fill you in on what you made clear to me. If it happens in this world, it happens because God willed it so.

NO! How many time must we do this???? One last time! God's Plan provides us an oppertunity to choose where we wish to spend eternity. In order to do this we must be set in a place away from the known glory of God. (Apart from His protection and correction) or the Choice we make will not be our own.
If you have a question ask it now do not proceed till you understand this completely

Quote:Figures.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-12703.html
at least read the first few post before yoou assume too much.

Quote:And I feel like I have made it quite clear an equal or greater number of times that planned choice isn't choice it all.

I will agree it is not the choice you want and you feel that is not fair. How is that can we agree there?

Quote:What if I told you they did?

Then I would ask them for Book Chapter and Verse Like I asked you.

Quote:What if I told you they didn't, but said it was implied?

then I would point out that this 'belief' was not biblically based.

Quote:Or, what if they said it was implied and justified it was another chapter and verse tag?

Then I would point back to the direct command of Christ when he said: "When you pray, Pray like this..." Again nothing imlied we have a direct command. religious or traditional interpertations do not supperceed direct commands.

Again we do not have anything that says one can not petition God. Matter of fact I do it all the time too. I am just point out this is not a prayer and you should know as it is not a prayer god is not under any obligation to even hear it. If you or 'they' want to be heard by God you will have to humble yourself and follow the model of Prayer Christ left for us.

Quote:Why does it matter?

It only matters if you really what to have an oppertunity to speak to God and have Him speak to you back. Otherwise it doesn't.

Quote:This is anecdotal. It illustrates that, no matter who you talk to, they will believe they are right and will dogmatically resume their condition regardless of the differing views that others find valid.
In other words, you bible means a millions things and one thing at the same time.

Do you know what 'dogma' is? it is the thought that you are right. so yes. no matter what you believe you will dogmatically justify your beliefs with or without the bible.

I simply say if your trying to worship the God of the bible then it is with the bible one must do it. If you want to pray then it will have to be how Christ shows us, and not by some 'understanding' you thought you had with God in sunday school.

How important is it to you to assume that people are trying to convince themselves god doesn't exist? Do you need to implicate us to feel better about the garbage you've swallowed?

Drich Wrote:Actually no I couldn't. (If I am to remain faithful to what i have been given) This is my all in all, I will not brag about what I do, just know that I can not do any more, and I take what little free time I do have and give the lion's share over to you people and a few others in places like this.

I think I can unequivocally speak for everyone here when I say that your free time is better off doing something more constuctive than defending the bible to the godless atheists. You could convince everyone that all of their interpretations of the bible are false, but you would still be lacking the one thing needed, evidence. If only god can give this, it is beyond your hands, no?

BTW, the categorization of everyone here as "spiritually hungry" simply because they do not believe what you do comes across as arrogant and condescending.

(August 13, 2012 at 3:28 pm)Thor Wrote:

(August 13, 2012 at 12:48 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Describe to me a world in which utopia and free will coexist.

Hmmmm....

Then, by what you say here, there can be no free will in heaven.

Noope.

That why "Heaven" is not for everyone. Hence the Choice.

---

(August 13, 2012 at 7:40 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I think I can unequivocally speak for everyone here when I say that your free time is better off doing something more constuctive than defending the bible to the godless atheists.

Actually no you can't for there's about 1/2 a dozen that have reached out to me, in whom you do not speak for. (and many more who simply read)

Quote: You could convince everyone that all of their interpretations of the bible are false, but you would still be lacking the one thing needed, evidence. If only god can give this, it is beyond your hands, no?

For those who want proof I am more than happy to show you how to petition God for it. that interaction between God and yourself will be stronger than anything I can say or do.

Quote:BTW, the categorization of everyone here as "spiritually hungry" simply because they do not believe what you do comes across as arrogant and condescending.

Some of you are indeed arrogant and condescending, and i do take some pleasure matching my responses to your own efforts, but at the same time many are seeking/hungery and do not have any real way of seeking God's truth. If what I said does not appply then feel free to ignore me and move on,(I'm not talking to you) if it does feel free to ask a question.

Quote:Many who are suffering are displaced farmers who are held up in refugee camps, and if it did rain (as it does here) it would make things much worse.

They are in refugee camps because their homeland has turned to sand and the only chance of eating is to go where the food is. Your god apparently doesn't give a rats ass about them which seems pretty typical of the cunt.

As I am far more interested in science than your absurd superstition I know that the Sahara has been steadily drying out for 6,000 years or so and will continue to do so for a while longer. Praying to your god...or any god...will do them no fucking good at all. But it gives you to do so you can pretend you care.

Roger, roger, those secretive atheists who just needed your help to truly understand god. They really wanted to know god, but, you know, not enough to let others know about it.

I smell bullshit. Tell you what though, maybe I'm wrong. Supposing I am though, it would probably be best to let them tell us all about it (or just keep it a secret, you know, since they clearly wanted it to remain a secret), rather than parading around the notion of them like a string of fucking ears. IOW, go fuck yourself.

Quote:That why "Heaven" is not for everyone.

Surely this defeats the whole point of heaven?

(August 14, 2012 at 3:26 am)Tobie Wrote:

Quote:That why "Heaven" is not for everyone.

Surely this defeats the whole point of heaven?

How so? Were you one of the one's complaining about pain and suffering found here in this life? This pain and suffering is a direct result of sin. Sin is a willful seperation of God. Haven't you had enough of the consenquences of sin in this life?