(October 12, 2012 at 1:36 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(October 12, 2012 at 12:13 am)Darkstar Wrote: Psalms 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

The earth moves....

Does it?
Can you prove that without an absolute frame of reference?

So you are saying that the distant galaxy's are traveling faster than the speed of light in order to give the illusion of us spinning and them being relatively static, yet they also emit light that still reaches us?

(October 12, 2012 at 11:39 am)Darkstar Wrote: Typical conversion story

So you're saying that you've heard multiple, independent attestations of people experiencing God and they line up?!

Seems pretty amazing to me.

(October 12, 2012 at 11:39 am)Darkstar Wrote: If I offended you Jeff, I apologize

No worries! I have been forgiven by God so I am able to freely forgive =D

I appreciate you Darkstar

(October 12, 2012 at 12:13 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(October 12, 2012 at 11:39 am)Darkstar Wrote: Typical conversion story

So you're saying that you've heard multiple, independent attestations of people experiencing God and they line up?!

Seems pretty amazing to me.

That's not quite what I meant. If everyone had the exact same 'god experience' that converted them, we might be onto something. What I mean is that most conversion stories I hear (or, more accurately, read) involve a dissillusionment with material things/ an empty feeling/ rampant immorality that needs threat of hell to correct. As for the first, I figured that focusing more on actual people than just things would alleviate the lack of fulfillment, but if you are dissillusioned with human relationships then...well I haven't ever heard that particular detail used before and I can't say I understand the sentiment.

Also, you only mentioned reading the bible; I didn't see an 'experience with god'. Uber-ironic in that reading the bible for the first time usually has the opposite effect...

(October 12, 2012 at 11:34 am)Greatest I am Wrote: The logical position that Christians should take if they believe that it is a blessing to have children and babies die as that would insure that they go to heaven, should lead all these believing parents to kill their children and thus insure that they end in heaven. Otherwise, as scriptures indicate, they, as part of the majority of adults will end in hell.

You are correct. You have actually prompted me to change my views regarding this.

Before I chose to believe that babies who are killed go to heaven...but you are right, if that premise is true then we should become baby murders.

I think a more accurate/biblical statement (that I have now adopted) is babies that are "elect" go to heaven.

Otherwise abortion would be the greatest evangelism tool ever invented.

(October 12, 2012 at 12:25 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: ...

I think a more accurate/biblical statement (that I have now adopted) is babies that are "elect" go to heaven.
...

This has made the doctrine of election even more evil than I could have imagined.

(October 12, 2012 at 12:28 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(October 12, 2012 at 12:25 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: ...

I think a more accurate/biblical statement (that I have now adopted) is babies that are "elect" go to heaven.
...

This has made the doctrine of election even more evil than I could have imagined.

Wait...what does 'elect' mean in this context?

(October 12, 2012 at 12:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Also, you only mentioned reading the bible; I didn't see an 'experience with god'.

The voice/thought/impression that lead me to purchase a Bible in the first place was an encounter with God. Reading the Bible (the Word of God) itself was an encounter with God. I felt like God himself was speaking to me as I read through Romans.

Sounds crazy I know, but I'd only be saying if I believed it to be true. No point in making a fool of myself otherwise.

(October 12, 2012 at 12:30 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(October 12, 2012 at 12:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Also, you only mentioned reading the bible; I didn't see an 'experience with god'.

The voice/thought/impression that lead me to purchase a Bible in the first place was an encounter with God. Reading the Bible (the Word of God) itself was an encounter with God. I felt like God himself was speaking to me as I read through Romans.

Sounds crazy I know, but I'd only be saying if I believed it to be true. No point in making a fool of myself otherwise.

Millions of people across the span human history have had such religious experiences. They've led them to beliefs that can't all be true (Mormonism is true, Allah is God, Jesus lives, We have spirit animals, etc).

It is crazy. And you're crazy for accepting such things as proofs of God.

(October 12, 2012 at 12:29 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Wait...what does 'elect' mean in this context?

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11-12
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

The elect are those that will come to place their faith in Jesus and receive redemption and forgiveness of sins.

John 1:11-13
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Faith is not something you conjure up yourself. Faith itself is something given by God

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Quote:Sounds crazy I know, but I'd only be saying if I believed it to be true. No point in making a fool of myself otherwise.

On that last point you've done a good job.