Drich Wrote:One of the major problems with the legend hypothesis, however, which is almost never addressed by sceptical critics, is that the time between Jesus’s death and the writing of the gospels is just too short for this to happen.

What part of "There were myths about George Washington even before he died, and he never claimed to be divine" did you not understand? A lot of people today still think the story about the cherry tree is a true one.

Drich Wrote:This point becomes even more devastating for skepticism when we recall that the gospels themselves use sources that go back even closer to the events of Jesus’s life. For example, the story of Jesus’s suffering and death, commonly called the Passion Story, was probably not originally written by Mark. Rather Mark used a source for this narrative. Since Mark is the earliest gospel, his source must be even earlier. In fact, Rudolf Pesch, a German expert on Mark, says the Passion source must go back to at least AD 37, just seven years after Jesus’s death.

Why is it that the bible is the only document that lends credence to Jesus's divinity? Likewise:

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Matthew 27:51-53 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

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So zombies walked freely about the city and "appeared to many people" and not one source from the day makes any mention of this. Isn't that at least a little unusual?

(October 12, 2012 at 9:40 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Yeah, and god doesn't make sense. God isn't simply unseen, he is unseeable. No on can ever see god...

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Exodus 33:20- But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

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John 1:18- No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

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...except when they can:

Exodus 24:9-11 - "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank."

You've actually just stumbled upon a Christian apologetic used towards believers in Judiasm. Jews believe that no one can see God and live, and yet there are instance in the Hebrew Bible where God takes a human form and people do see Him and live.

These are called Christophanies...appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

So yes, there is a conflict there for believers in Judaism...no there is no conflict with Christians who believe that the first person of Trinity (God the Father) cannot be seen but that the second person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) can be seen.

(October 12, 2012 at 7:29 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Still hold to what? That babies are sinners?

If that is the question, the my response is, "Yes...babies are born in sin and need redemption just as much as you or I."

My reasons would be that the Bible teaches so.

And of course anything written in that useless pile of shit becomes fact to a wanker like you, huh?

(October 14, 2012 at 5:58 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: So yes, there is a conflict there for believers in Judaism...no there is no conflict with Christians who believe that the first person of Trinity (God the Father) cannot be seen but that the second person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) can be seen.

Yeah, but it said they saw "the God of Isreal", not Jesus. This was part of the OT, so Jesus hadn't come to earth yet. It did not say 'the holy spirit', so it could only have been the father.

(October 14, 2012 at 6:07 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Yeah, but it said they saw "the God of Isreal", not Jesus. This was part of the OT, so Jesus hadn't come to earth yet. It did not say 'the holy spirit', so it could only have been the father.

Christians believe in the Trinity as one God having three separate points of consciousness. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Divinity is an attribute possessed by each person.

Any one of the members of the Trinity can be referred to as the God of Israel....because there is only one God.

I don't think your argument against this Christophany is sound based on your misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

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(October 14, 2012 at 5:55 pm)Darkstar Wrote: What part of "There were myths about George Washington even before he died, and he never claimed to be divine" did you not understand? A lot of people today still think the story about the cherry tree is a true one.

I gave you professional historian of times prior to and contemporaneous with Jesus, A. N. Sherwin-White. I'm not saying that because a scholar believes it, it's true. However, I think his opinions (since he is well researched/studied in his arena) have more weight than your story of George Washington.

Do you have scholarly work to back up your statement? Even if you did, it is also a different time in history and a different culture. It seems to me that you would need to provide a similar story to George Washington in the Roman/Greek historical context near the time of Jesus for that argument to hold water.

No ones opinions hold any weight whatsoever Jeff. I'd ask a scholar the same question I'd ask you, evidence? Every-time some jackass points to the bible or quotes a bible verse when asked for this I die a little on the inside.

It is the evidence that has weight, not someones opinion. You criticized the notion that the christ narrative was mythical or legendary based upon the lack of time involved. Dark gave you an easy example of an actual person who had myth and legend spring up about them in their lifetime. Case closed on that count, for you, for Sherwin-White. Perhaps the narrative isn't mythical or legendary, but it isn't factual or historical based on this reason in any way.

Examples of myths and legends? Do you think that everything the greeks and romans wrote about their heroic leaders (and enemies) was factually accurate?

(are you -or any of your favorite scholars- going to be producing these source documents anytime soon? No? Oh, well, I guess that I can just claim that those documents had an even earlier source, ad infinitum, until I get to whatever point in time I feel is convenient, or pagan religion I want to use to mock your faeries with.)

(October 14, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Christianity is not just another religion, Jesus is not just another prophet, the Bible is not just another book.

Why, because you just quoted your own bible again? "Establish the bibles credibility" - "Well the bible says" -bzzzzzt, wrong answer. Christianity remains just another religion, Jesus remains just another prophet, the bible remains just another book.

Quote:My intent is to answer you question. If you feel I am not please let me know.

In your modified analogy you too are scum of the earth and just as guilty as they are. You would not have a "right" to beat them.

Jesus-fucking-christ....
I am blameless, my children are the scum of the earth....can I beat 2 of them now to make my not beating the third more wonderful for him, and how glorious is this beating going to be?

Quote:That is the direct answer to your question, here is my "fiddling" with it to make it more accurate to the biblical teachings.

Imagine that you had a son who was perfect, a paragon. Then you and him decide to make a home for orphans and provide food and clothes for them. The orphans, instead of showing gratitude, begin to tear apart everything that you give them. They begin to show love, appreciation and gratitude to strangers, but never to you. They will come home bruised, tired, hungry and cold and you clothe them and feed them again and again only to be further and further maligned.

Okay, I'm imagining it, can I beat them now?

Quote:Your paragon of a son steps in and tries to show them how much you (his father) cares for them and instead of listening to him they kill him thinking that now they will have the run of the place.

Excellent, have we reached the point where I can beat them now?

Quote:As the father who is innocent you would be completely justified to have the orphans arrested and prosecuted for murder.

OH, so you -did- kill jesus..well, I didn't. (I always knew it wasn't the jews).

Quote:You have a reputation for being a just man so you follow through with the law.....but you decide to show even further mercy to some and you keep them from being prosecuted for murder.

Justice was executed, mercy was shown.....so it is with God.

I don't see any justice here Jeff. I see you peddling your myths again...and those myths are wholly unconnected with justice or mercy. Justice demands that all three "murderers" in your fairy tale example be punished (of course justice would also demand that these three actually commit a murder before it ever gets to the point of considering punishment.....that's something which you won't be able to establish, of course)....it isn't mercy but cronyism and favoritism that excuses one of the punishment set forth for the other two. Don't even get me started on the proposed mechanism for this whole sorry business. So it is with god indeed, or at least so you would hope...\

(I find this whole bit incredibly unsatyisfying btw, not only have you refused to answer such a simple and direct question no matter how many times I've asked, you've been attempting to modify -my question- until the principals involved are all wholly unrelated to the original gibberish you decided to spout off. So here we find ourselves, you practically calling our entire species christ-killers, waxing on about murder and how that justifies seeking justice..but you offer neither the murder nor justice...and what any of that has to do with my question -and your original statement-...who knows)

(October 14, 2012 at 5:11 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: • “Those who hate me without cause are more numerous than the hairs of my head” (Ps 69:4).
• “The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers conspire together against the Lord and His Anointed One” (Ps 2:2).
• “Even my friend in whom I trusted, one who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me” (Ps 41:9).
• “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered” (Zch 13:7).
• “Then I said to them, ‘If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.’ So they weighed my wages, 30 pieces of silver. ‘Throw it to the potter,’ the Lord said to me—this magnificent price I was valued by them. So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the house of the Lord, to the potter” (Zch 11:12–13).
• “They are striking the judge of Israel on the cheek with a rod” (Mc 5:1).
• “I gave My back to those who beat Me, and My cheeks to those who tore out My beard. I did not hide My face from scorn and spitting” (Is 50:6).
• “They pierced my hands and my feet” (Ps 22:16).
• “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?” (Ps 22:1).
• “Everyone who sees me mocks me; they sneer and shake their heads: ‘He relies on the Lord; let Him rescue him; let the Lord deliver him, since He takes pleasure in him’ ” (Ps 22:7–8).
• “They gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink” (Ps 69:21).
• “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me” (Ps 22:14).
• “Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted” (Is 53:4).
• “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. Like a lamb led to the slaughter and like a sheep silent before her shearers, He did not open His mouth” (Is 53:7).
• “They divided my garments among themselves, and they cast lots for my clothing” (Ps 22:18).
• “He submitted Himself to death” (Is 53:12).
• “He bore the sin of many and interceded for the rebels” (Is 53:12).
• “You may not break any of its bones” (Ex 12:46).
• “He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken” (Ps 34:20).
• “They will look at Me whom they pierced” (Zch 12:10).
• “They made His grave with the wicked, and with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence and had not spoken deceitfully” (Is 53:9).
• “For You will not abandon me to Sheol; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see the Pit” (Ps 16:10).
• “You ascended to the heights, taking away captives; You received gifts from people, even from the rebellious, so that the Lord God might live there” (Ps 68:18).
• “The Lord declared to my Lord: ‘Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool’ ” (Ps 110:1).


Who do you think this is referring to?

All of these scriptures are taken from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. This was all completed some 400 years before Jesus was born. This is a widely accepted fact, in fact these were all translated from Hebrew into Greek in Alexandria roughly 150 years before Jesus' birth.

These writings, these predictions are SO specific that they leave no room for error.

No other religious literature has prophecies so distinct, so specific that have been fulfilled in the way that Christ has fulfilled the Hebrew Bible.

Christianity is not just another religion, Jesus is not just another prophet, the Bible is not just another book.

You do know, that the persons who wrote the first testament were probably aware of any prophecies in the old testament and well, probably tried to make things fit together a bit.

Do you have any idea how much the bible was changed, since it came into existance.
There was not only a change in wording (wich changes some messages completly) but also were parts left out.
The bible your probably using is the king James bible, so your only "validating" 17th century english scripture, wich might mean something completly different in 15 century german, 13 century greek or 12 century latin.

(October 14, 2012 at 8:08 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: You do know, that the persons who wrote the first testament were probably aware of any prophecies in the old testament and well, probably tried to make things fit together a bit.

The Jewish idea of Messiah was that a man would rise up in popularity and military/political power and overthrow the foreign powers that were oppressing the Jewish people. If you were following a man that you believed to be Messiah, and instead of rising up and conquering the foreign powers he is arrested by them, beaten, mocked, spit on, stripped naked and crucified, you would conclude that he was not the Messiah.

It would literally require a miracle for the disciples to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. The idea of an isolated resurrection in the middle of history was completely foreign to them, the man that they had been following as Messiah was just crucified (which in Judaism would literally mean that you were cursed by God - thus not Messiah), and they were hiding for their lives locked up in a room together so that they themselves weren't crucified for following Jesus.

Only the resurrection of Jesus would have so changed them and convinced them that Jesus was in fact Messiah. Only an appearance from Jesus who had conquered death could take these cowards and change them to so boldly and fearlessly proclaim that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and had risen from the grave.

not answereing my question wont make it go away.

(October 14, 2012 at 8:17 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Only the resurrection of Jesus would have so changed them and convinced them that Jesus was in fact Messiah. Only an appearance from Jesus who had conquered death could take these cowards and change them to so boldly and fearlessly proclaim that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah and had risen from the grave.

Maybe not. Maybe they didn't believe he was messiah, but wanted to carry on his ideals in the form of a new religion and made fake claims of a ressurrection (among other miracles) to fool people into following teachings they believed to be right. What is more, no source other than the bible mentions these 'miracles'. This miracle would be particularly hard to miss, especially considering the fact that it explicitly states that many people saw it. What, did they all get sudden amnesia?