As far as I know, Christians believe that Jesus was a man, but they also believe that he was God at the same time (or "God in flesh"). So in that regard, they believe that when Jesus was crucified on a cross, it was actually God who was taking on the sins of billions of people in order to give them salvation. This is known as atonement according to Christian theology.

Now, I've come across many verses which imply that Jesus was much lower than God, the Father. For example, the Bible says that Jesus used to pray to His father (John 17:1) and that his Father was greater than he was (John 14:28). There are at least a couple more verses like that.

On the other hand, however, there are other verses in the Bible that has been interpreted by Christian scholars to mean as if Jesus was God and/or that he was the sole object of worship amongst early Christians. I think those are derived implicitly, though, not from direct statements like "Jesus is God" or "You must worship Him," for example.

That brings me to the question of my topic, which is:

Is there anything explicit in the Scripture itself where Jesus says that "I am God" or "worship me"? If there are, then please post them here. If there aren't any verses like that, then what are some of the verses that come closest in supporting that belief (i.e. that Jesus is God)?

I didn't find anything like that, so that's why I'm asking.

Atheists can answer this, too, if they want to.

There's a number in gJohn. Most skeptics acknowledge that. I and the Father are one, You have seen me, you have seen the Father are the first two that pop to mind.

Good question, Rayaan. As John says, there are a few oblique references in gJohn, the latest of the so-called gospels. Of course in the synoptic gospels jesus is protrayed as talking/praying to "god" so apparently gjohn wants people to believe that their boy was talking to himself.

Bart Ehrman has demonstrated that this stuff has been edited over the centuries to the point where it is hard to make any definitive statements about it.

John 8:12-19 and John 8:48-59 are very clear about Jesus' diety. Jesus forgives sins, accepts worship, says he has always existed, says he will judge the world at the end of time and claims to be the only way to heaven. His statement "I am" in 8:59 is translated directly as Yahweh, the Hebrew name for God (in Exodus 3:14 Moses asks for God's name, God tells him I AM). In John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one." More: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html

(November 5, 2012 at 5:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Of course in the synoptic gospels jesus is protrayed as talking/praying to "god" so apparently gjohn wants people to believe that their boy was talking to himself.

One God, three distinct persons. It's not that they are the same God split up into different places. Genesis 1:26 reads "Let us make mankind in our image." If he were one person, who might he be talking to? Yet they have one will.

Quote:One God, three distinct persons.

Complete and utter horseshit. It took xtians centuries to cobble that kind of stupidity together to fool the dolts.

Looks like it worked in your case.

(November 5, 2012 at 5:35 pm)John V Wrote: There's a number in gJohn. Most skeptics acknowledge that. I and the Father are one, You have seen me, you have seen the Father are the first two that pop to mind.

Yeah, but "I and my Father are one" does not necessarily mean that they are one in substance.

If you look at some of the other verses (in the same Gospel), their context implies a different meaning of John 10:30 from what you're arguing.

This is what I read in one article:

Quote:John 10:30

"I and my Father are one."

This verse does not say that they are "same being." This text does not say how they are one at all. Fortunately for us, John later records Jesus' teaching on how He and his Father are one. "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as (kathos) we are...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as (kathos) thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as (kathos) we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:11, 20-23).

Jesus here makes clear that his disciples can be one even as (kathos) He and his Father are one. The Greek kathos means just as or how (See Strong's). In other words, Jesus prayed that they may be one just as He and his Father are one. If Jesus and his Father are one being manifest in two persons, for Jesus' prayer to be fulfilled his disciples must loose their identity and become absorbed into the Trinity! Assuming that a Billion or more will be saved (just for fun)--what will that make? A "Billinity"?

So how are Jesus and his Father one, according to Jesus? The key is in verse 22: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that (hina) they may be one, even as we are one." The Greek word hina translated "that" literally means in order that (See Strong's). Jesus and his Father share the same glory and are thus one. Jesus prayed that his disciples may receive Their glory in order that they may be one with Them.

There is no other passage of scripture in the Bible that defines how Jesus and his Father are one. The later post-Biblical doctrine that define the Trinity as one being in three persons is not derived from the Bible but is added to it.

http://strongreasons.blogspot.com/2008/0...futed.html

(November 5, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: John 8:12-19 and John 8:48-59 are very clear about Jesus' diety.

Here are the verses that you referring to, but I did not find anything there that fall in line with the claim that Jesus is a diety:

http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%208.12-19
http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John%208.48-59

The basic message of those verses above is that Jesus is like a "guiding light" and that Jesus tells people to "follow" him. But, when he says "follow me," that doesn't necessarily mean that he is saying that he is God. I think it's more sensible to reason that the "follow me" is telling us to follow his teachings and the words that were revealed to him, and when people follow his teachings, they are also following God's commandments.

"If you remain in me and follow my teachings, you can ask anything you want, and it will be given to you. You should produce much fruit and show that you are my followers, which brings glory to my Father. I loved you as the Father loved me. Now remain in my love. I have obeyed my Father's commands, and I remain in his love. In the same way, if you obey my commands, you will remain in my love". (John 15:7-10)

http://www.biblestudytools.com/ncv/john/...hn+15:7-17

(November 5, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Jesus forgives sins, accepts worship, says he has always existed, says he will judge the world at the end of time and claims to be the only way to heaven.

I've heard those, but they are not sound interpretations according to my understanding.

I'll elaborate on those in a different post.

(November 5, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: His statement "I am" in 8:59 is translated directly as Yahweh, the Hebrew name for God (in Exodus 3:14 Moses asks for God's name, God tells him I AM).

Quote:
Most literally, EGO EIMI means "I am" — present tense, and that it is how it appears in most translations. However, Jesus is speaking of his existence in the past, not just the present. By using the Greek word "prin", meaning "before", Jesus places what he next states in the past tense, "before Abraham" came to be existing, and he then relates his own existence "before" Abraham’s existence. In the Koine Greek, the present tense is often used in the context of the past is often used to denote a past continuity. Many wish this to be translated as "I AM" in order to connect it with "I AM" — Ehyeh — of Exodus 3:14, or with certain scriptures in Isaiah, such as Isaiah 41:4 and Isaiah 43:10, with the thought that this phrase means without beginning or without end.* "I am" [Greek transliterated: ego eimi] however, is simply present tense, and simply states what is now, and in itself states nothing about an eternal past and future. Any thought of "uncreated" has to be imagined beyond what he stated so as to force his words into such a meaning.

Continued here: http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=1030

In (original) Greek:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?...ng=3&ncc=3

(November 5, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: In John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one." More: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html

See my post above (in response to John V).

(November 5, 2012 at 6:34 pm)Undeceived Wrote: One God, three distinct persons.

In the real world, we call that Dissociative Identity Disorder (or Multiple Personality Disorder in laymans terms).

Jesus’ Own Words That He is God


Let’s ignore for now some of the plain statements about Jesus, such as John 1:1 "The Word was God", since they were said by others not in His presence. This still leaves a number of places for us to consider.


Jesus Himself said He was God in John 8:58. Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The word "I am," was the divine name of God, used countless times in the Old Testament. This word "YHWH" in Hebrew, is explained as the "personal name" of God in Exodus 3:14-15, 20:5; Isaiah 42:8; 44:6, this personal name of God has been lost to Muslims. Now the Jews either understood Jesus’ communication correctly when they picked up stones to stone Him, or else they misunderstood Jesus’ communication. Jesus could have said "there is a mistake here, you misunderstand me. I do not claim to be God like you say." However, there is no record of Jesus ever saying there was any mistake. On the contrary, we have records of the apostles, as well as their disciples, reiterating that Jesus is God.


The Jew’s responded directly to Jesus’ claim in John 10:33: "‘We are not stoning you for any of these’, replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’"

Jesus replied to them that

1) Since Scripture called non-divine being "gods" in Psalm 82:6-7, how much more fitting it is it to call the One uniquely set apart as God’s Son.

2) Even if you will not believe Jesus’ words alone, at least consider the miracles to understand that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.


On other occasions the scribes and Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus because He claimed to be God. Now imagine a godly person being accused, on multiple occasions, of a wicked crime he did not commit. Imagine him barely escaping some times, but every single time, he never denied that he committed the crime. Can you imagine this? - I cannot. Yet that is what some critics think Jesus did for the crime of blasphemy in claiming to be God.


Negative affirmation: Jesus said of the Pharisees, "if you do not believe that I am the One I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24b.


Positive affirmation of Thomas: Thomas the disciple called Jesus God in John 20:28. Thomas even went further than that. John 20:28 actually says that Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus replied to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus has no hint of rebuke toward Thomas. Indeed, the only remotely negative thing Jesus said is that those who have not seen Jesus in person and believe (this about Jesus) are more blessed than those who have seen Jesus and believe this. Now either

a) Thomas was wrong, and he sinned by calling Jesus God, and perhaps Jesus sinned by accepting this and not rebuking Thomas, or

b) Jesus was right to affirm what Thomas said.

Do you agree that either: They were both right, or that Thomas and Jesus were both wrong?


Jesus would send His angels in Matthew 13:41, which are the angels of God (Luke 12:8-9; 15:10).


Jesus said he would judge the world (Matthew 24:31-46, 25:31-3; John 5:21-22, 27). Yet is God who is coming to judge the world (Psalm 50:1-6; Joel 3:12; Deuteronomy 32:35)


At Jesus’ trial for blasphemy before the Sanhedrin, they could have let him go. All Jesus had to do was say "I am not God, people thinking I was God is a mistake." Yet Jesus never said that, and the trial continued.


"All that belongs to the Father is mine." John 16:15a. Now it is easy to understand someone saying "All that belongs to me I give to God", but Jesus says, "All that belongs to the Father is mine." I have never heard anyone explain how this could be a true statement and Jesus not be God.


A non-Christian might wonder if these were added much later. However, an ancient Bible manuscript called the Bodmer II papyrii (125-175 A.D.), has preserved John 1:1-6:11; 6:35b-14:26; 14:29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4, 6-7; 16:10-20:20; 20:22-23; 20:25-21:9; 21:12,17.
http://www.muslimhope.com/JesusIsGod.htm

(November 5, 2012 at 7:08 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Yeah, but "I and my Father are one" does not necessarily mean that they are one in substance.

If you look at some of the other verses (in the same Gospel), their context implies a different meaning of John 10:30 from what you're arguing.

Whoa, hold on there cowboy. At this point I haven't argued anything. You posed your question as an innformation request, not a challenge. If you're arguing that the Bible doesn't portray Jesus as divine, you should have said so.

In that case I would have started with OT prophecies of the messiah, such as:

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.