(March 13, 2013 at 9:34 am)EGross Wrote: My grandfather was "medically dead" for about 2-3 minutes. After they brought him home, I asked him what he saw. Bright light? Family? "Nope - didn't see nothin'" - You sure? I mean, all of the people on TV talk about a big light? "They don't know nothin'. Wasn't no light. Wasn't nothin'"

Even if he'd seen something he hadn't been dead past the point of no return.

(March 13, 2013 at 8:00 am)Phish Wrote: Does it turn into soil or something else

That would be "something else". Soil is a tad bit more complicated than your leftover juice.

The notion that NDEs mean anything requires a lot of metaphysical scaffolding which just isn't there. So you end up with a curious circular logic in which the metaphysical postulates support the interpretation of the NDE itself, which in turn validates the metaphysical postulates upon which the interpretation originally rested. I'm not going to open up another thread on consciousness, but in order for any of this to make sense, you have to believe in certain things about the nature of consciousness which are unproven, and for which there is a strong circumstantial case against them being true.

One property that I've suggested as being a part of the defining characteristics of life is "sustainability," being that life forms are able to perpetuate the persistence of their form (by perpetuating a form which perpetuates itself). Even if I were to accept the rather hopeful notion that our energy is the necessary totality of consciousness, without a form to perpetuate itself, it simply dissipates. To suggest that life, meaning consciousness, is able to sustain itself outside the body is an extraordinary proposition which requires a lot more than "I saw a white light."


@Norfolk and Chance:

He was careful to limit it to anything that is possible. I still think the claim is unjustified, but it's a much weaker claim than that "anything will happen."

---

Oh, and I just noticed this at the bottom of the article:

"Robert Lanza, MD is considered one of the leading scientists in the world."


Way to ruin a perfectly good bullshit meter.

(March 12, 2013 at 8:34 pm)apophenia Wrote:


I've been alive my whole life and I haven't died yet. I take that as a hopeful sign.

That's good enough for me. Case closed. We're all immortal.

(March 13, 2013 at 2:30 pm)apophenia Wrote: Oh, and I just noticed this at the bottom of the article:

"Robert Lanza, MD is considered one of the leading scientists in the world."


Way to ruin a perfectly good bullshit meter.

I did a search related to that the other night. That claim appears to originate from Dr. Lanza himself.

BTW, it's always good to keep an extra bullshit meter or two around just in case.

(March 13, 2013 at 8:00 am)Phish Wrote: [quote='Brian37' pid='413998' dateline='1363174033']Well i said before that i hope that death is the last stage,and nothing more. But i don't know where does our energy from the body go when we die.Does it turn into soil or something else

Vast majority of the energy that is you, say 99%+, is in the form of the mass of the protons and neutrons that make you up. A small minority, say 0.9999%, is in the form of nuclear energy that comes from the arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons into atoms of different elements in your body, such as oxygen, hydrogen, etc. The almost infinitesimal remaining portion, say 0.0001%, is chemical energy that comes from the arrangement of atoms into molecules.

Based on all we know about biology, physics, and chemistry, everything that the normal person might consider to his/her essence - the consciousness, the thoughts, the memories, the feelings, are but a small portion of the biological processes powered and controlled by just a very tiny fraction of that infinitesimal remaining portion that is chemical energy - a very tiny fraction of 0.0001%.

So, when you die, you protons and neutrons couldn't care less. None of them will change in the slightest way to mark the occassion. So 99% of your energy thus goes on exactly as if you never even existed.

Your atoms couldn't care less either, unless you by chance step into the path of very powerful neutron beams in your dying mement, in which case one in a quintillion atom in your body might change configuration and gain or release energy. But to a precision of 8 or 10 decimals, your atoms won't care about whether you live or die either. So the 0.9999% of your energy also goes on exactly as it did before, or so close as to make no difference.

The only thing that would go on with any change at all, is the infinitesimal fraction of your energy that is chemical in nature. Where does it go? Well, it goes no where. It is still all there. The only difference is any moderating and governing effect of your biological metabolic process on the extraction and use of this energy, now no longer function. So the existing energy will now be released or utilized in a slightly different way as you decay, and your chemicals either undergo spontaenous chemical reaction, or are taken up by other organisms to come to be regulated and governed by their biological metabolic process, instead of yours.


So is that clear? You stop. Your energy goes on. You are not your energy.

Quote: But i don't know where does our energy from the body go when we die

The energy of the living cells is mainly lost as heat, the idea that your "soul" or whatever you call it lives on is nonsense, when you die you only exist in the memory of other people. Asking where you go after death is like asking where the music goes when the band stops playing.

(March 13, 2013 at 3:05 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(March 13, 2013 at 8:00 am)Phish Wrote: [quote='Brian37' pid='413998' dateline='1363174033']Well i said before that i hope that death is the last stage,and nothing more. But i don't know where does our energy from the body go when we die.Does it turn into soil or something else

Vast majority of the energy that is you, say 99%+, is in the form of the mass of the protons and neutrons that make you up. A small minority, say 0.9999%, is in the form of nuclear energy that comes from the arrangement of protons, neutrons and electrons into atoms of different elements in your body, such as oxygen, hydrogen, etc. The almost infinitesimal remaining portion, say 0.0001%, is chemical energy that comes from the arrangement of atoms into molecules.

Based on all we know about biology, physics, and chemistry, everything that the normal person might consider to his/her essence - the consciousness, the thoughts, the memories, the feelings, are but a small portion of the biological processes powered and controlled by just a very tiny fraction of that infinitesimal remaining portion that is chemical energy - a very tiny fraction of 0.0001%.

So, when you die, you protons and neutrons couldn't care less. None of them will change in the slightest way to mark the occassion. So 99% of your energy thus goes on exactly as if you never even existed.

Your atoms couldn't care less either, unless you by chance step into the path of very power neutron beams in your dying mement, in which one in a quintillion atom in your body might change configuration and gain or release energy. But to a precision of 8 or 10 decimals, your atoms won't care about whether you live or die either. So the 0.9999% of your energy also goes on exactly as it did before, or so close as to make no difference.

The only thing that would go on with any change at all, is the infinitesimal fraction of your energy that is chemical in nature. Where does it go? Well, it goes no where. It is still all there. The only difference is any moderating and governing effect of your biological metabolic process on the extraction and use of this energy, now no longer function. So the existing energy will not be released or utilized, in a slightly different way as you decay and your chemicals either undergo spontaenous chemical reaction, or are taken up by other organisms to come to be regulated and governed by their biological metabolic process, instead of yours.


So is that clear? You stop. Your energy goes on. You are not your energy.

So the univers is expressing its self as a human for a short time?

sweet,thanks man will write down the things you have say

(March 13, 2013 at 3:51 pm)Phish Wrote: So the univers is expressing its self as a human for a short time?

I have no idea what that sentence could possibly mean.

(March 13, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(March 13, 2013 at 3:51 pm)Phish Wrote: So the univers is expressing its self as a human for a short time?

I have no idea what that sentence could possibly mean.

We're not separate from the universe - we're part of it.

Carl Sagan expressed the idea far better than I ever could.

Quote:And we who embody the local eyes and ears and thoughts and feelings of the cosmos we've begun, at last, to wonder about our origins. Star stuff, contemplating the stars organized collections of 10 billion-billion-billion atoms contemplating the evolution of matter tracing that long path by which it arrived at consciousness here on the planet Earth and perhaps, throughout the cosmos.