(December 16, 2013 at 11:57 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 8:18 pm)Ksa Wrote: The brother may well like it, and yet, it may still be bad for the brother. That's what we're debating. The brother's inconsistency is a matter of opinion.

I agree that his inconsistency might be a matter of opinion.

It just looks pretty shady to me the way that he wrote the post so as to make members think that he himself views religion that way (i.e. as a matrix that we should "free" ourselves from and not to be "mind slaves" of it), only to later say that he actually likes staying in this matrix and that he finds bliss in religion ... as opposed to wanting to free himself from the matrix ... thereby contradicting what he just said earlier.

And now he's acting like he is confused by telling me "well on some days I really don't know which side I'm on." I don't take seriously someone who wavers back and forth so much about what he believes. I even have a suspicion that he might have been trolling us (quite cleverly), but, of course, I could be wrong about that also.

Or he just could be confused like you. But you hold harder onto your delusions.

(December 17, 2013 at 12:20 am)whateverist Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 7:42 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Well, if you were on the atheists' side, or talking about religion from their point of view, then that makes your post misleading to everyone because you presented it as your point of view (on religion). You even started the post by saying "I was going to post this in the section about banning the burka, but thought it actually had broader application." So, according to that sentence, it was clearly you who "thought" that, not anyone else.

Again, is the quote in your OP the atheists' point of view on religion or your own point of view? I asked you this earlier but you didn't answer that.

Okay, Jacob. Come out with your hands up. Just want to ask you a few questions. Whose side are you on .. and when did you know it?

Ummmm (trembling in the spotlight)...
Mine?

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Quote: And now he's acting like he is confused by telling me "well on some days I really don't know which side I'm on." I don't take seriously someone who wavers back and forth so much about what he believes.

I shall attempt to live with that

I try not to overinvest in any view. It makes it so much harder to change it if / when I discover I need to. The degreeof "wavering" is inversely proportionate to my level of confidence in my position.

As to the op, I honestly wasn't thinking in terms of what it would make people think I believed. I've set out my views after someone asked me to. To be honest, in my mind, Esquilax was morpheus in that scene. I was thinking of my position as one of the agents, but subsequently decided cipher was a closer fit.

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(December 16, 2013 at 7:42 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 16, 2013 at 2:47 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: An enemy yes. Didn't say who's .

You did say who's.

"Religion is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy."

(December 16, 2013 at 2:47 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: And some days I really don't know which "side" i'm on.

Well, if you were on the atheists' side, or talking about religion from their point of view, then that makes your post misleading to everyone because you presented it as your point of view (on religion). You even started the post by saying "I was going to post this in the section about banning the burka, but thought it actually had broader application." So, according to that sentence, it was clearly you who "thought" that, not anyone else.

Again, is the quote in your OP the atheists' point of view on religion or your own point of view? I asked you this earlier but you didn't answer that.

Well I could take the easy out and say it was the atheists pov, but I'll be honest sometimes I agree with that view . Perhaps I'm schizophrenic.

(December 17, 2013 at 3:38 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Well I could take the easy out and say it was the atheists pov, but I'll be honest sometimes I agree with that view .

1. The quote in your OP is the atheist's point of view.
2. Sometimes you agree with that view.

So, if "sometimes" you agree with that view - which is the atheists' point of view on religion - then do you consider yourself to be a Christian at those times?

Are you a Christian sometimes and an atheist sometimes?

(December 17, 2013 at 6:19 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 17, 2013 at 3:38 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Well I could take the easy out and say it was the atheists pov, but I'll be honest sometimes I agree with that view .

1. The quote in your OP is the atheist's point of view.
2. Sometimes you agree with that view.

So, if "sometimes" you agree with that view - which is the atheists' point of view on religion - then do you consider yourself to be a Christian at those times?

Are you a Christian sometimes and an atheist sometimes?

Maybe sometimes he gets a little bit free from delusion but then it takes control of him again. But at least he gets free from it from time to time unlike you.

(December 17, 2013 at 6:42 am)feeling Wrote: Maybe sometimes he gets a little bit free from delusion but then it takes control of him again. But at least he gets free from it from time to time unlike you.

Yeah - maybe so. And I guess the atheists will see that only as a good thing for him.

(December 17, 2013 at 6:57 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 17, 2013 at 6:42 am)feeling Wrote: Maybe sometimes he gets a little bit free from delusion but then it takes control of him again. But at least he gets free from it from time to time unlike you.

Yeah - maybe so. And I guess the atheists will see that only as a good thing for him.

I see freedom from delusion as good thing for everyone. I hope you get free from yours to someday if not already (who knows maybe you pretend to be a muslim^^).

Nah, I'm not an atheist in denial. I feel quite steadfast in my faith now, although I used to be an atheist one time also. And I spend time to learn more about my religion everyday.

(December 17, 2013 at 7:06 am)Rayaan Wrote: Nah, I'm not an atheist in denial. I feel quite steadfast in my faith now, although I used to be an atheist one time also. And I spend time to learn more about my religion everyday.

What kind of muslim are you then?

(December 17, 2013 at 7:06 am)Rayaan Wrote: I used to be an atheist one time also.

How does a person go from atheist to muslim?!

(December 17, 2013 at 6:19 am)Rayaan Wrote:

(December 17, 2013 at 3:38 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Well I could take the easy out and say it was the atheists pov, but I'll be honest sometimes I agree with that view .

1. The quote in your OP is the atheist's point of view.
2. Sometimes you agree with that view.

So, if "sometimes" you agree with that view - which is the atheists' point of view on religion - then do you consider yourself to be a Christian at those times?

Are you a Christian sometimes and an atheist sometimes?

Interesting question. Yes, I still consider myself a Christian at those times. I consider myself a loving husband even at 4 am when I've been kept awake by the snoring, AND THEN SHE NICKS THE DUVET notwithstanding that my feelings at that point are somewhat less than loving.

I guess I'm either a failing atheist or a failing failing Christian depending on ones perspective.