@ superstarr

1. Forgiveness is what it is. The unforgivable sin isn't actually unforgivable if you study it, but nevermind huh. Yeah forgiveness is for the alive ones in this scenario. *shrugs*

2. Negative connotations or gross misinterpretations

3. That's a story fool. God is just - he never kills immorally. Barren landscapes? What??

4. laws of men

Our shifting morality doesn't match up to God's.

(July 13, 2010 at 5:07 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: @ superstarr

1. Forgiveness is what it is. The unforgivable sin isn't actually unforgivable if you study it, but nevermind huh. Yeah forgiveness is for the alive ones in this scenario. *shrugs*

2. Negative connotations or gross misinterpretations

3. That's a story fool. God is just - he never kills immorally. Barren landscapes? What??

4. laws of men

Our shifting morality doesn't match up to God's.

1. Lol, Ok......even though my first example wasn't after living.

2. Yeah, cherry picking the good things and ignoring what repulsive things there are must be real fun. Besides, it's called stubborness to just ignore the sense of reality of the bible being positive and negative.

3. Never kills anybody immorally? Have you read the bible?

4. So, if we never changed from how it explained in the bible, everything would still be alright like today? So it's best to leave women below men, and leaving slavery how it was because God approves of it? Along with killing people that the bible says should be killed? Let me guess "They are metaphors!!" Or "Out of context!"

@ superstarr :

1. Lol, Ok......even though my first example wasn't after living.

superstarr Wrote:Also, God doesn't forgive you if you die and don't have your faith in Jesus Christ.

Note the "die" bit

2. Yeah, cherry picking the good things and ignoring what repulsive things there are must be real fun. Besides, it's called stubborness to just ignore the sense of reality of the bible being positive and negative.
If you could back that up with an ounce of credibility I might be interested. Guess what?

3. Never kills anybody immorally? Have you read the bible?
Yes. And understood it. (hint : you're meant to try to understand it)

4. So, if we never changed from how it explained in the bible, everything would still be alright like today? So it's best to leave women below men, and leaving slavery how it was because God approves of it? Along with killing people that the bible says should be killed? Let me guess "They are metaphors!!" Or "Out of context!"
Those were laws of men, I already said. They demonstrate an interpretation that was wrong, and that Jesus corrected.

1. I said my "first" example, not my second. Look back

2 and 3. Numbers 31:7 - "They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. "

Since when would God want to avenge someone? Can't control his temper?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 - "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you"

So God is in involved with the killing and approves it.

4. Well if Jesus did say that, think of it this way. There are a lot of repulsive things in the Old Testament, and if God wrote and/or inspired the OT, and if Jesus is God, then he DID approve of those things regardless of Jesus mentioning them or not.

@ superstarr

1. I said my "first" example, not my second. Look back
I answered the first example. You applied the answer to the second example to the first as well; and it didn't apply.

2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

4. Well if Jesus did say that, think of it this way. There are a lot of repulsive things in the Old Testament, and if God wrote and/or inspired the OT, and if Jesus is God, then he DID approve of those things regardless of Jesus mentioning them or not.
In the OT it says "an eye for an eye" (repay evil with evil) and in the NT Jesus says "turn the other cheek" (repay evil with kindness). 1 = people's law. 2 = God's law.

(July 15, 2010 at 3:43 am)fr0d0 Wrote: 2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

He demands murder which makes him guilty by accomplice, unless you defend that assassination contracts are legal binding

Quote:How do you know that these people were reliable?
Because what they say works out logically, and has successfully lasted two millennia against scrutiny.

so is buddhism or islam. what is the difference?
-------------------------
I don't think the other two work out logically. Allah isn't God - he's some inferior god who contradicts his own existence. Christianity, with the element of forgiveness, trumps all other faiths.

Actually there is no difference between your god and allah.. and that element of forgiveness its all over in quran.
approximately every verse ends with "allah is forgiving merciful etc.. And according to quran every sin you have done can be forgiven if you repent. Islam is just a little bit brutal version of christianity.
And what about buddhism?? Actually its way better than both islam and christianity.
anyway tell me, according to bible what happens if I suicide? or what happens if I die as an atheist?
Am I going to hell for eternity or not?

Quote:Not all people do bad things, and the bible is clearly authored to have a positive message.

how do you know that? that book is clearly suitable to be abused. why do they wrote it like that than?
and you guys keep telling that bible is not literal. how do you know that? Is there a manual or something tells you not to take bible literally we dont know about?

Quote:The point is that being good doesn't get you favour.

I agree

Quote:Only God is just. No one else can know enough to be.

I dont agree.
if god was just, being good should get you favour. at least shouldn't get you sorrow..

Quote:The point of the story is that people were living unhealthily and the solution of reversing that was by force. By using forgiveness in the form of Christ this is unnecessary. The detail is an exciting story using mass destruction and genocide... it's a story telling mechanism.

dont you think bible encourages people to use mass destruction? by the way that story, noahs ark is taken from sumerian lore. and probably an exaggerated version of a flood which was really happened. Again who tells you to take that stories as metaphors?

Quote:2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

first of all thats a sick idea. and second then tell me if killing isnt wrong what about torturing? It is what happens in hell is it not?

(July 15, 2010 at 3:43 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ superstarr

1. I said my "first" example, not my second. Look back
I answered the first example. You applied the answer to the second example to the first as well; and it didn't apply.

2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

4. Well if Jesus did say that, think of it this way. There are a lot of repulsive things in the Old Testament, and if God wrote and/or inspired the OT, and if Jesus is God, then he DID approve of those things regardless of Jesus mentioning them or not.
In the OT it says "an eye for an eye" (repay evil with evil) and in the NT Jesus says "turn the other cheek" (repay evil with kindness). 1 = people's law. 2 = God's law.

Given that the morally dubious bits of the Bible are often associated with God's commands, it seems to me that your criteria for deciding what is really him are: 'Dodgy bits which advocate genocide and beating slaves= people's law', 'Nice bits which advocate none of the aforementioned= God's law'. Besides, Jesus said he had not come to get rid of the old law, so he presumably approved of most of the Mosaic laws. The New Testament isn't all wine and roses, either. Jesus refuses to help a Gentile woman from Canaan in Matthew 15:26, saying 'It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs'. Furthermore, the idea of vicarious redemption and the idea of hell are both extremely morally dubious. So, what are your criteria, exactly?

Quote:2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

Frods....that is a typical apologist trick when they are trying to get Yahweh the Bloody Handed off the hook for being a vile depiction of a barbarian. It does not work. Killing IS wrong and if your all-perfect god does it then he is not so fucking perfect.

(July 15, 2010 at 3:43 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ superstarr

1. I said my "first" example, not my second. Look back
I answered the first example. You applied the answer to the second example to the first as well; and it didn't apply.

2. Yes God kills, but never murders. This is the distinction. Killing isn't wrong, murder is.

4. Well if Jesus did say that, think of it this way. There are a lot of repulsive things in the Old Testament, and if God wrote and/or inspired the OT, and if Jesus is God, then he DID approve of those things regardless of Jesus mentioning them or not.
In the OT it says "an eye for an eye" (repay evil with evil) and in the NT Jesus says "turn the other cheek" (repay evil with kindness). 1 = people's law. 2 = God's law.

1. I didn't "apply" the second to the first. I said "also" meaning "another example." Your claiming that God only doesn't forgive when people are dead, but the first one isn't about after death, it can happen at anytime. Besides, you didn't answer, all you said was that it isn't really unforgivable if you think about it. So what you're telling me, is that God is lieing.

2. Do you want a list of people God wants to murder? Either way, killing or murdering, it's still taking someone's life forcefully.
-people working on the sabbath
-being Gay
-children or sons cursing theirparents
-those who aren't a virgin in their wedding night
The list goes on and on like the energizer bunny.

3. Matthew 5:18 "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished" here, he mentions the OT.