(December 10, 2014 at 10:53 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't see what this has got to do with the first amendment. It's a business, pay tax. Am I missing something?

The First Amendment forbids the state from making laws which unnecessarily impedes the free exercise of religion. Levying a tax on churches make it harder for people to produce them and maintain them. This is equivalent to impeding the free exercise of religion.

Now if you can show that it is necessary for the state to levy taxes against churches in order to govern then perhaps you have a case. But since the government has been able to govern perfectly well for the hundreds of years that churches have been tax exempt, I don't think it very likely you will be able to make a compelling case.

(December 10, 2014 at 10:43 am)Heywood Wrote:

(December 9, 2014 at 11:50 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Because it's a church. Duh! Or in other words special pleading.

It is not a special pleading because there is a valid reason for the exception.....that reason being the First Amendment.

Separation of church and state has never required that churches get any relief from the laws applicable to everyone else, unless the law directly contradicts the practice of their religion.

Church buildings are subject to fire codes, building codes, not to mention zoning. With the exception of allowing churches to require some types of employees to be adherents to the faith, churches are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as everyone else. They are also required to adhere to employment tax laws. What is different about requiring them to pay money on the amounts the collect from church members let alone on money made in church owned business and investments?

Special higher taxes for churches would be prohibition. Level taxes is not.

(December 10, 2014 at 10:53 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't see what this has got to do with the first amendment. It's a business, pay tax. Am I missing something?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Tax doesn't prohibit anything. I mean, all the normal laws apply to a church, you can't start killing people because you're in there. It's not making a law respecting religion, it's expecting people who earn money to be under the same rules as anyone else.

Woodie will probably say something about how taxing churches could be seen as imposing undue restrictions on worship, which would be prohibiting free exercise.

I'm fine with church's being tax-exempt, they aren't the only tax-exempt organizations, but if they want to be tax-exempt, then they should follow the same documentation process as all other tax-exempt charities.

(December 10, 2014 at 11:04 am)Heywood Wrote: Levying a tax on churches make it harder for people to produce them and maintain them. This is equivalent to impeding the free exercise of religion.

.

How would imposing a tax make it harder to be a religious institution? Taxes haven't made businesses go away. Churches are businesses and if they earn a profit, they should pay like every other business.

A church could get out of paying taxes by giving physical charity like food or clothing to those in need(You know, doing what Jesus commanded)

We use the word church but this would apply to temples, synagogues etc.

(December 10, 2014 at 11:04 am)Jenny A Wrote: Church buildings are subject to fire codes, building codes, not to mention zoning. With the exception of allowing churches to require some types of employees to be adherents to the faith, churches are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as everyone else. They are also required to adhere to employment tax laws. What is different about requiring them to pay money on the amounts the collect from church members let alone on money made in church owned business and investments?

If suddenly churches were subject to property taxes many churches could not afford them and would be forced to shut down. This is obviously an major impediment to the free exercise of religion. Zoning ordinance are not such an impediment because there are always zones available where one can establish a church. Zoning ordinance and building codes are minor impediments.

Further the state could not effectively govern without applying zoning laws or building codes equally. However the state can and does effectively govern by not levying taxes equally. Why do blind people get a special exemption? Why do poor people pay a smaller percentage? Why do you get a credit for buying an electric car? Why do poor students who go into blue collar work immediately after high school start paying into social security while rich kids who go to college don't? The college kids will start paying into social security later and statistically they will retire earlier and collect it longer. Granting churches tax exempt status in no meaningful way prevents the state from governing.

Woodie, how about the churches simply go through the same documentation process that other tax-exempt organizations undergo? That would allow them to retain their tax-exempt status. Why should Churches get to bypass the laws for that, especially when simply documenting its finances isn't imposing on worship in any way?

(December 10, 2014 at 11:31 am)Nope Wrote: How would imposing a tax make it harder to be a religious institution? Taxes haven't made businesses go away. Churches are businesses and if they earn a profit, they should pay like every other business.

A church could get out of paying taxes by giving physical charity like food or clothing to those in need(You know, doing what Jesus commanded)

We use the word church but this would apply to temples, synagogues etc.

Taxes make some business models untenable when without the tax they would be tenable. So while taxes have not made all business go away or not be establish they certainly have made many businesses go away or not be established.

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(December 10, 2014 at 11:42 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Woodie, how about the churches simply go through the same documentation process that other tax-exempt organizations undergo? That would allow them to retain their tax-exempt status. Why should Churches get to bypass the laws for that, especially when simply documenting its finances isn't imposing on worship in any way?

If Churches are tax exempt what is the point of submitting their finances to government scrutiny?

(December 10, 2014 at 11:44 am)Heywood Wrote: If Churches are tax exempt what is the point of submitting their finances to government scrutiny?

Because that's a process that every other tax-exempt organization has to undergo. It's not an imposition on their worship, it doesnt forbid them from exercising their faith.

For those up on these things: is the tax exempt business referring to overall profit of the church after wages have presumably been paid, or actually taxing the wages of the priests and stuff? Or both?

(December 10, 2014 at 5:48 am)Godschild Wrote: @ Min, you are suggesting to intrude on our right to be separate from government snoopery.

GC

Right. And do you know why? Because the motherfuckers have demonstrated that they are untrustworthy.



and, before you get to comfy thinking it is only the catholics who are criminal fucks, remember that your baptist pals



are scumbags, too.