You're right, you don't need to read it. All you need to say is, "Why should I believe anything this book has to say?" and then point out the circular logic that ensues. Then do the same thing with a Harry Potter book and see if they object.

But they often make claims like the bible has no errors, and that sort of thing can be proved wrong in a flash if you know the bible.

(February 11, 2015 at 1:02 pm)robvalue Wrote: You're right, you don't need to read it. All you need to say is, "Why should I believe anything this book has to say?" and then point out the circular logic that ensues. Then do the same thing with a Harry Potter book and see if they object.

But they often make claims like the bible has no errors, and that sort of thing can be proved wrong in a flash if you know the bible.

Harry potter was more straight forward who is the villain unlike the bible. when reading the bible as a child i always thought the god was more the bad guy than the devil was.

Haha yes. I don't know how anyone can read the old testament and come away with the idea that god is the good guy. If you had never read it before, and were asked to read it, no one with an ounce of sense would say he was good. They'd want to know why he was so angry, vicious, hypocritical and violent. And why he kept saying he was good all the time while acting exactly the opposite way.

Christians really believe that god exists. They really believe he did all that monstrous shit. And they want to worship him. Why doesn't a single one of them believe but then not worship? Fear. Fear, fear, fear.

(February 11, 2015 at 1:15 pm)robvalue Wrote: Haha yes. I don't know how anyone can read the old testament and come away with the idea that god is the good guy. If you had never read it before, and were asked to read it, no one with an ounce of sense would say he was good. They'd want to know why he was so angry, vicious, hypocritical and violent. And why he kept saying he was good all the time while acting exactly the opposite way.

Christians really believe that god exists. They really believe he did all that monstrous shit. And they want to worship him. Why doesn't a single one of them believe but then not worship? Fear. Fear, fear, fear.

Because god is a 5 year old in the sky with magic powers and is throwing a tantrum because his mother wouldn't get him ice cream so we suffer for it.

If god made us in his image, why did he make rules so that we couldn't do the stuff he does all the time?

Ah it's too easy. Religion is like a 150 year old man trying to wrestle Bobby Lashley.

(February 11, 2015 at 7:26 am)FreeTony Wrote: What really fascinates me is the willingness to use such obviously flawed arguments to prop up ones faith. It seems to me that they understand the problem, they find the first "solution" to the problem even though it is clearly not a solution if you think about it for more than 3 seconds, and continue to use it, stick their fingers in their ears and stubbornly refuse to think about it. They then try and turn the conversation around so that they can continue avoiding the issue.

I would call it dishonesty, and this is the reason that these religious types really wind me up. Not only are they being dishonest to me, but to themselves as well. The consequence of this being that if everyone reasoned like that, zero human progress would be made.

There are many really simple explanations for this, one of them being the words of an ancient Hittite king concerning instruction for palace conduct in relation to his purity:

"If anyone does something in an unclean way or if anyone arouses the king's displeasure, but you say as follows: 'The king is not seeing us,' be aware of the fact that the king's gods will certainly observe you. They will treat you as a goat and pursue you over the mountains, they will treat you as a sheep and pursue you over the rocks... Further: You who are water carriers, be very careful with water! Strain the water with a strainer! At some time I, the king, found a hair in the water pitcher in Sanahuitta. The king became angry and I expressed my anger to the water carriers saying: 'This is scandalous.' Then Arnilis said: 'Zuliyas was careless.' ...Zuliyas... was found guilty... and he died... Are the minds of men and of the gods generally different? No! With regard to the matter with which we are dealing? No! Their minds are exactly alike. When a servant is to stand before his master, he is bathed and clothed in clean garments; he either gives him his food, or he gives him his beverage. And because he, his master, eats and drinks, he is relaxed in spirit and feels one with him. But if he the servant is ever amiss, if he is inattentive, his mind is alien to him. And if a slave causes his master's anger, they will either kill him or they will injure him at his nose, his eyes, or his ears; or they will seize him, his wife, his children, his brother, his sister, his in-laws, his kin whether it be a male slave or a slave-girl. They may either impose the extreme penalty, or they may do to him nothing at all. If ever he is to die, he will not die alone; his kin will accompany him. If then, on the other hand, anyone arouses the anger of a god, does the god take revenge on him alone? Does he not take revenge on his wife, his children, his descendants, his kin, his slaves, and slave-girls, his cattle and sheep together with his crop and will utterly destroy him? Be very reverent to the word of the god! ...The will of the gods is strong. It does not make haste to seize, but when it seizes, it does not let go again. Now be very reverent of the will of the gods... do not yield to a man's whim, let him not take precedence of the gods. You must not make a deal of the god's pleasure. Should with you a man take precedence of the gods and should you make a deal for yourselves, the gods will seek to take revenge on you in the future. They will hold a grudge against you, yourselves, your wives, your children and your servants. So act only according to the pleasure of the gods!"

(February 11, 2015 at 1:20 pm)dyresand Wrote: Because god is a 5 year old in the sky with magic powers and is throwing a tantrum because his mother wouldn't get him ice cream so we suffer for it.

I always thought God was more of the abusive husband. He constantly calls Israel a whore, beats them into submission, beats them worse if they try to leave him, tells them that they deserve it for not listening to him, and then questions why they can't see how much he loves them.

(February 11, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(February 11, 2015 at 7:26 am)FreeTony Wrote: What really fascinates me is the willingness to use such obviously flawed arguments to prop up ones faith. It seems to me that they understand the problem, they find the first "solution" to the problem even though it is clearly not a solution if you think about it for more than 3 seconds, and continue to use it, stick their fingers in their ears and stubbornly refuse to think about it. They then try and turn the conversation around so that they can continue avoiding the issue.

I would call it dishonesty, and this is the reason that these religious types really wind me up. Not only are they being dishonest to me, but to themselves as well. The consequence of this being that if everyone reasoned like that, zero human progress would be made.

There are many really simple explanations for this, one of them being the words of an ancient Hittite king concerning instruction for palace conduct in relation to his purity:

"If anyone does something in an unclean way or if anyone arouses the king's displeasure, but you say as follows: 'The king is not seeing us,' be aware of the fact that the king's gods will certainly observe you. They will treat you as a goat and pursue you over the mountains, they will treat you as a sheep and pursue you over the rocks... Further: You who are water carriers, be very careful with water! Strain the water with a strainer! At some time I, the king, found a hair in the water pitcher in Sanahuitta. The king became angry and I expressed my anger to the water carriers saying: 'This is scandalous.' Then Arnilis said: 'Zuliyas was careless.' ...Zuliyas... was found guilty... and he died... Are the minds of men and of the gods generally different? No! With regard to the matter with which we are dealing? No! Their minds are exactly alike. When a servant is to stand before his master, he is bathed and clothed in clean garments; he either gives him his food, or he gives him his beverage. And because he, his master, eats and drinks, he is relaxed in spirit and feels one with him. But if he the servant is ever amiss, if he is inattentive, his mind is alien to him. And if a slave causes his master's anger, they will either kill him or they will injure him at his nose, his eyes, or his ears; or they will seize him, his wife, his children, his brother, his sister, his in-laws, his kin whether it be a male slave or a slave-girl. They may either impose the extreme penalty, or they may do to him nothing at all. If ever he is to die, he will not die alone; his kin will accompany him. If then, on the other hand, anyone arouses the anger of a god, does the god take revenge on him alone? Does he not take revenge on his wife, his children, his descendants, his kin, his slaves, and slave-girls, his cattle and sheep together with his crop and will utterly destroy him? Be very reverent to the word of the god! ...The will of the gods is strong. It does not make haste to seize, but when it seizes, it does not let go again. Now be very reverent of the will of the gods... do not yield to a man's whim, let him not take precedence of the gods. You must not make a deal of the god's pleasure. Should with you a man take precedence of the gods and should you make a deal for yourselves, the gods will seek to take revenge on you in the future. They will hold a grudge against you, yourselves, your wives, your children and your servants. So act only according to the pleasure of the gods!"

That is simply to deny that god is all good. That actually makes sense. See:





I borrowed the video from this thread:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-31338.html

If we look at some other religions, like the ancient Greek religion, it is not subject to the problem of evil, because the gods are not depicted as perfectly good. (Nor are they depicted as omnipotent, either.) Evil in the world is not inconsistent with such beings.

(February 11, 2015 at 2:08 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(February 11, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Nestor Wrote: There are many really simple explanations for this, one of them being the words of an ancient Hittite king concerning instruction for palace conduct in relation to his purity:

"If anyone does something in an unclean way or if anyone arouses the king's displeasure, but you say as follows: 'The king is not seeing us,' be aware of the fact that the king's gods will certainly observe you. They will treat you as a goat and pursue you over the mountains, they will treat you as a sheep and pursue you over the rocks... Further: You who are water carriers, be very careful with water! Strain the water with a strainer! At some time I, the king, found a hair in the water pitcher in Sanahuitta. The king became angry and I expressed my anger to the water carriers saying: 'This is scandalous.' Then Arnilis said: 'Zuliyas was careless.' ...Zuliyas... was found guilty... and he died... Are the minds of men and of the gods generally different? No! With regard to the matter with which we are dealing? No! Their minds are exactly alike. When a servant is to stand before his master, he is bathed and clothed in clean garments; he either gives him his food, or he gives him his beverage. And because he, his master, eats and drinks, he is relaxed in spirit and feels one with him. But if he the servant is ever amiss, if he is inattentive, his mind is alien to him. And if a slave causes his master's anger, they will either kill him or they will injure him at his nose, his eyes, or his ears; or they will seize him, his wife, his children, his brother, his sister, his in-laws, his kin whether it be a male slave or a slave-girl. They may either impose the extreme penalty, or they may do to him nothing at all. If ever he is to die, he will not die alone; his kin will accompany him. If then, on the other hand, anyone arouses the anger of a god, does the god take revenge on him alone? Does he not take revenge on his wife, his children, his descendants, his kin, his slaves, and slave-girls, his cattle and sheep together with his crop and will utterly destroy him? Be very reverent to the word of the god! ...The will of the gods is strong. It does not make haste to seize, but when it seizes, it does not let go again. Now be very reverent of the will of the gods... do not yield to a man's whim, let him not take precedence of the gods. You must not make a deal of the god's pleasure. Should with you a man take precedence of the gods and should you make a deal for yourselves, the gods will seek to take revenge on you in the future. They will hold a grudge against you, yourselves, your wives, your children and your servants. So act only according to the pleasure of the gods!"

That is simply to deny that god is all good. That actually makes sense. See:





I borrowed the video from this thread:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-31338.html

If we look at some other religions, like the ancient Greek religion, it is not subject to the problem of evil, because the gods are not depicted as perfectly good. (Nor are they depicted as omnipotent, either.) Evil in the world is not inconsistent with such beings.

My point is more or less that the dishonesty beneath the facade is really the fruit of a meme that has been cultivated for thousands of years, transforming the threat of actual ill will and bad luck into a presumption of fear and superstition.

To be fair to the OP, one rarely sees the words "brilliant" and "apologetic" and "fact" in the same short sentence.