(May 1, 2015 at 12:26 pm)Jericho Wrote: A lot of us are agnostic atheists...making no claims for or against ... god(s).  We just don't believe.  So why become hostile towards us and claim you know how we are feeling or what is going through our minds?  ... I liken us to crayons.

Hostility unintentional if any. My god(s) take lots of lumps and aren't easily offended. As for crayons, ...  

(May 1, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Chas Wrote: I suggest you stop generalizing about a diverse group.

Sociologists and psychologists (both sciences) make quite a few generalizations about diverse groups, by discovering what the group members have in common. For atheists, I've listed these above in my last few posts. To identify these common factors is not to stereotype. Yet it's not hard to see that in contemporary Western society, a de facto "standard brand" has emerged for atheism and nearly everyone recognizes it. The story of the eye versus the pocket watch, drawn from Rich Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker, has become a formula. A standard icon adorns the forum masthead. Few other than atheists tell this story or use these icons, so they "brand" atheists apart from other people. The fact that exceptions to this pattern exist won't ruin the pattern's general validity in the eyes of a sociologist. There are exceptions to the rule that smoking causes cancer as well.

Atheism does differ from religion in important ways. Making use of "universal languages" like mathematics and the hard sciences, it cuts across cultures around the globe to a greater extent than any religion does. But most atheists get their science secondhand and therefore must trust authority to some degree or another. They choose which sources to trust based on their college library science courses, which incidentally advise against over-reliance on Wikipedia.

So, while you didn't get your decoder ring, you have little trouble recognizing fellow atheists and finding something to converse with them about. And, if I may presume, you take pride in your identity as an atheist. The similarities between atheist and religious on these criteria outweigh the differences. Atheism, like religion, is a glue that binds people together as a tribe. My last statement remains true even if science explains the natural world better. People are groupies no matter what.

(May 1, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Chas Wrote: Your experience in the commercial dining room?  Huh?

Why shore! You must know what your customers think of you before they even sit down, or you're out of business.

(May 1, 2015 at 12:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: I really can't follow what you're saying anymore.

No sweat. Sometimes I can't either.  

(May 1, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: And, if I may presume, you take pride in your identity as an atheist. The similarities between atheist and religious on these criteria outweigh the differences. Atheism, like religion, is a glue that binds people together as a tribe. My last statement remains true even if science explains the natural world better. People are groupies no matter what.

What?!

What's there to take pride in atheism? That's certainly not what defines me. As for groups, yes, certainly. I confess to finding this board more interesting than answers in genesis or breitbart.com. But that's about all. In my real life, the question of theism or atheism doesn't even crop up.

(May 1, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote:

(May 1, 2015 at 12:04 pm)robvalue Wrote: There is no atheistic belief system. You seem to have some misconceptions, equating atheism with scepticism...

Quote:Many atheists talk like they're coming from a belief system. They fight for what they believe in. They get angry and indignant if they are challenged. They consider themselves "right" and all others "wrong." At risk of repeating myself, they also have standard formulas used in speech or writing, icons such as the "atom" logo or pictures of galaxies emerging from the big bang, and codewords or phrases by which they recognize fellow atheists.

Atheists can believe in a lot of things and hold different opinions. you will find diversity here. The one thing that all atheists agree on is that they do not currently believe in gods.

An Atheist does not have to believe in the big bang evolution or any other scientific theory. I have never been a theist and so was an atheist before I new any science by default.

What you have noticed is that when discussing the same topic we bring up the same facts. We to grow tired of having to repeat ad infinitum the same information but theists keep coming thinking they are bringing in something new. Which we answer time and again.

Quote: These are all the earmarks of a faith. I just don't buy the denial I hear, "we don't believe in anything."

No they aren't. Not believing in something is not a faith.

Do you have a not believing in fairies faith coz that is what you are accusing us of.

If people kept coming up and saying but fairies are real, you would ask "prove it".

I could keep on with this analogy for a while but I think you get the gist.

Quote:I realize atheism includes diversity and don't group them all together en bloc. But really, every human being holds a belief system of some kind, whether it's simply personal opinion or identification with an organized body of opinion-makers. We can't turn off that part of our nature as if it were a faucet.

Why is not believing in god a "belief system". It does not define me. I just come here to speak with like minded people and am fascinated by the mindset of people who choose to believe absurdities.

 

Quote:I don't fault atheists for what they choose to do with their consciences, or blame them for understandable defense of their own stances. I merely refuse to believe they are Vulcans like Mr. Spock who make choices uninformed by emotion.  

We never claimed to be unemotional robots. We just do not think that there is a being that dictates our morals. In this way we take more responsibility for our own actions.

When a theist is good it is often to please god. You often here that the only thing holding these people back from rapey rampages is their belief, (I kid you not, we've had it on this site!).
When an atheist is good it is because they are a good person.
Mostly we are well behaved.(mostly)

(May 1, 2015 at 12:16 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't know how you can tell we are getting emotional, hatsch.

Quote:It comes with experience smoothing the customers' ruffled archaeopteryx feathers in the commercial dining room, a place much like where the Royal Society used to meet in the early days of science. Albeit my antennae don't work as well online as they do at the table.

Meanwhile, I'd better get off the horn now lest I hog space here. My thanks to everyone.  

Much as I fundamentally disagree with you on everything I enjoy your writing style and think you are a good addition to our community. I too am totally unemotional as I sit her typing. you are not an annoyance (yet).

Seconded I don't mind people disagreeing with me, and you're not being unpleasant about it.

Same here. I don't mind someone disagreeing with me, as long as they try to be entertaining with it.

Differing opinions are welcome, as long as you aren't a total jerk about it.

(May 1, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: Atheism does differ from religion in important ways. Making use of "universal languages" like mathematics and the hard sciences, it cuts across cultures around the globe to a greater extent than any religion does. But most atheists get their science secondhand and therefore must trust authority to some degree or another. They choose which sources to trust based on their college library science courses, which incidentally advise against over-reliance on Wikipedia.

But I'm sure you'll agree that getting our science secondhand from actual authorities on the scientific subjects in question, coupled with the knowledge of how the scientific method works, is not the same as getting religion from religious authorities.

In other words, I can't easily measure the speed of light, but when scientific authorities from all over the world, from different cultures, with various god beliefs, all get the same results every time, every place, that is orders of magnitude better than getting information about gods from theologians, that not only differ drastically from culture to culture, religion to religion, but even among individuals of the same religion or god beliefs.

Quote:So, while you didn't get your decoder ring, you have little trouble recognizing fellow atheists and finding something to converse with them about. And, if I may presume, you take pride in your identity as an atheist. The similarities between atheist and religious on these criteria outweigh the differences. Atheism, like religion, is a glue that binds people together as a tribe. My last statement remains true even if science explains the natural world better. People are groupies no matter what.

Without engaging people in conversation, how do I go about recognizing fellow atheists? 

I don't take pride in my identity as an atheist. I take pride in my critical thinking ability, my skepticism, my rational thinking. My atheism is simply a natural result of those skills. Those same skills lead me to disbelieve in: UFO abductions, bigfoot, tarot card reading, etc, etc. I do not take pride in being an UFO abduction disbeliever, why should I take pride in being a god disbeliever?

The only thing that binds with me with other atheists is our lack of belief in gods. I have no idea, when meeting another atheist, if I'll have anything else in common (besides the likelihood that they are also critical thinkers) that will bind us. I go surfing with some great friends, that are all theists, several times a week. At least once a year we will go on an extended surf trip to some exotic location. I am much more likely to be bound to another surfer I just met, than an atheist I just met.

"You surf? Cool! Where have you been, what kind of board do you ride? Where you in the water today? Have you ever been to location X? How long have you been surfing? I'm going tomorrow. You want to meet somewhere?". This conversation can go on for hours. Ask my girlfriend who has been bored to tears with surfing conversations.

"You're an atheist? Cool! What else do we have in common? Nothing? Nice to meet you?" This conversation is likely to be over in minutes.

Simon is absolutely correct. Atheists are all different people, which is important to remember if you ever intend to talk about us as a whole. We all have different hobbies, skills, pet peeves, personalities, and more. Like Simon said, we do not have some secret bond with other atheists just because of our lack of belief. Unless I have something more interesting in common, then chances are that I won't even talk to another atheist for longer than a basic conversation.

Like I have mentioned before, I have a good amount of friends and dozens of acquaintances. Out of everyone that I hang out with on a daily basis, I am the only atheist. This goes to show that I care more about what we have in common than our views on religion.

I will say it one more time: Religion should not affect the personal and professional relationships that you have with other people.

Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

The theism/atheism debate looks like a group of humans with differing beliefs attempting to convince on another of the irrelevance of one another's views. Often, so-called "atheists" fall into the mistake of promoting an outdated scientism. The only thing science is good for is revealing the ungroundedness of all debates. Debate shall have been suspended once human extinction becomes a reality, and we know, thanks to natural history, that extinction is an inevitability. It makes no difference who believes in what, disbelief is the only stance capable of coming to terms with universal disappearance. Disbelief must pertain to many of the beliefs some atheists treasure. Belief in the redemptive qualities of science, or the causal operativity of genes, is a common shortcoming of the New "Atheists" such as Dennett or Dawkins. A skeptic answer to such issues would be to highlight the impending doom lying in wait for all these sophists.

(May 1, 2015 at 4:44 pm)Jericho Wrote: Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Seems to be for people that want to try to force atheism into the 'religion' category in their minds, so they can wave it off as another silly belief.

This attitude seems to be prevalent among 'holier than thou' agnostics, and theists that claim not to belong to any religion.