(June 16, 2015 at 11:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Yeah, that was me.  This tendency to demand that all cases fit into a single word is the real root of these evils.  In the case of the OP girl, it's more mysterious than in the case of transgender people, though.  I just can't see a problem with a woman saying, "My parents are white, but my husband and kids are black, and I hope you  will accept me as a person who identifies with black culture."  Why did she have to pretend?

I totally agree... that's what Caitlyn Jenner did by going from being a famous male athlete to being a woman on the cover of Vanity Fair. "I was born a man, but I identify as a woman and I hope you will accept me as one," seems to be the message she was trying to convey, don't you think?

(June 16, 2015 at 11:43 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 11:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Yeah, that was me.  This tendency to demand that all cases fit into a single word is the real root of these evils.  In the case of the OP girl, it's more mysterious than in the case of transgender people, though.  I just can't see a problem with a woman saying, "My parents are white, but my husband and kids are black, and I hope you  will accept me as a person who identifies with black culture."  Why did she have to pretend?

I totally agree... that's what Caitlyn Jenner did by going from being a famous male athlete to being a woman on the cover of Vanity Fair. "I was born a man, but I identify as a woman and I hope you will accept me as one," seems to be the message she was trying to convey, don't you think?

Yeah, that's the tragedy of this thread.  Much of it has been about hypothetical transgender people, but Caitlyn Jenner afaik has been honest, outgoing, and for the most part inspirational.  Threads get quagmire-fucked like that where a little one-liner ends up being the whole thread sometimes.  In fact, about 2 pages in, I was thinking "Fuck. . . I see where this is going."

 
I think it's very interesting that Jenner prefers female romantic partners.  I suppose the lack of operation is because she's not going to let gender identity get in the way of sexual preference.

Well... right. She more than likely considers herself a lesbian. It's not uncommon.

(June 15, 2015 at 4:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote:  I'm out.  Go ahead and take your last shots if you want, but I won't be reading them.

lol

(June 15, 2015 at 12:21 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: You can have the last word in the matter.  I'm done discussing this, and probably any other topic, with you.

You can't even say "goodbye" with originality.

(June 17, 2015 at 12:59 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Well... right. She more than likely considers herself a lesbian.  It's not uncommon.

I think by definition she'd be a lesbian.  However, I've read a couple interviews, and it's very clear that she considers gender identity and sexual preference completely separate.  So even though she identifies as a woman and prefers woman, I don't think she accepts the term "lesbian."  Complicated stuff, really.

(June 17, 2015 at 8:37 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 12:59 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Well... right. She more than likely considers herself a lesbian.  It's not uncommon.

I think by definition she'd be a lesbian.  However, I've read a couple interviews, and it's very clear that she considers gender identity and sexual preference completely separate.  So even though she identifies as a woman and prefers woman, I don't think she accepts the term "lesbian."  Complicated stuff, really.

They are separate, and it is complicated. One can be a transwoman and a lesbian simultaneously with no problem. What in the interviews hinted that she doesn't accept the term 'lesbian'?

Let Jeff explain a bit more about being a lesbian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi-MZOk8oD4

(June 17, 2015 at 8:40 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 8:37 am)bennyboy Wrote: I think by definition she'd be a lesbian.  However, I've read a couple interviews, and it's very clear that she considers gender identity and sexual preference completely separate.  So even though she identifies as a woman and prefers woman, I don't think she accepts the term "lesbian."  Complicated stuff, really.

They are separate, and it is complicated. One can be a transwoman and a lesbian simultaneously with no problem. What in the interviews hinted that she doesn't accept the term 'lesbian'?

Honestly, I can't remember.  I saw a recent clip of her, and I got the sense that she didn't gravitate toward that term.

(June 16, 2015 at 6:14 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I_am_not_mafia, I'm curious how you feel TG people should be treated with regards to things like sports, where they could have an unfair advantage.  As I mentioned before, imagine if Jenner, a superior world-class athlete as a man, had competed as a woman.  In this case, should she be accepted as a woman because she identifies as a woman?  Or should she be prevented from competing as a woman because her physical past would give her an unfair advantage over natural-born women?

Well let's be honest here, this doesn't really affect 99.999999% of the population. It's like the conservative Lords in Britain complaining about a hypothetical situation where some person with a hereditary title may run into legal difficulties if they are then recognised as female by the state.

The whole concept of competing in sport has become such a farce now. It's more down to money, technology and whether you have some kind of genetic abnormality which gives you an edge. And you can only compete in most sports when you are in your physical prime which doesn't give the body time to adapt post-transition. So every case would have to be determined on its own merits. But when you're referring to such a small section of the population, no competitor is actually typical of other members of their own gender.

Frankly it's not an issue I care about.

(June 17, 2015 at 8:37 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 12:59 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Well... right. She more than likely considers herself a lesbian.  It's not uncommon.

I think by definition she'd be a lesbian.  However, I've read a couple interviews, and it's very clear that she considers gender identity and sexual preference completely separate.  So even though she identifies as a woman and prefers woman, I don't think she accepts the term "lesbian."  Complicated stuff, really.

A lot of trans people have very fluid sexualities as they transition. A lot of repression goes out the window and add to that the effect of hormones. Most end up as bisexual. I remember speaking to a transman once and he started off a lesbian when he was living as a woman and ended up a gay man after he transitioned.

Interestingly, he told me that he actually became a feminist once he transitioned because he realised how much easier men had it.