As I started to investigate my own religion, I began to cast out doctrines like hell... because you have a very difficult problem with theodicy if you hold to it.  I then decided that the evil that occurs now is the most pressing issue if hell is out of the equation.  What use is my God if He doesn't intervene?  Therefore, God must not be a personal God.

I know the bible is not historically accurate, we can prove the documents are fables.  I know we have no evidence for the suspension of physical laws to allow for the possibility of miracles.  I know human biology doesn't allow for something like a virgin birth.

I just can't seem to give it up.  If I've cast out the doctrine of hell, you'd say I have nothing to fear.  I've drawn out all that I cannot hold to if I am going to hold to that which is true, there's nothing left.  Absolutely nothing.  My fear is entirely irrational.

My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

Perhaps it's those experiences that still hold me hostage to the Church.  My Grandmother sends my children books that I have to go through to weed out the crazy shit.  I'm embarrassed and ashamed to tell this story, but my eldest boy toasted the end of the world in front of my atheist parents during their last visit before supper.  The reaction he got sent him into tears.  I, of course, comforted him.  I teach my children that there is no hell, but then he clings to the return of Christ when this loving God comes back to destroy the Earth?

It's all complete and utter bullshit.  But I'm so f'ing scared to denounce it for my children's sake.  I am programmed to not say anything bad about Christ.  I literally can't... and I've even tried.  I can even tell you honestly that I love Christ (seriously, no joke).  But when I look at these things critically, there's nothing left for me to hold on to.

Church has been so good for my wife and children, though.  I'm afraid of what my wife will think of me.  I'm afraid I would be taking something good away from them if I am openly agnostic.  I'm not incredibly smart or anything, but they look to me for standards of goodness.

If I go to the clergy with these thoughts, I'm afraid I'm only going to get more of the same.  That's why I'm posting here.  I could use a little unbiased encouragement, maybe, from someone who has been through the same thing.

There is no hell. It doesn't make sense. The bible god is supposed to love everyone and yet, he sends people to an eternity of torment because they commit some finite crime. Religion decides what actions constitute a sin. So, a child murderer that asked forgiveness will be in heaven but two gay men might go to hell only because they had sex with one another. 

I don't know how to tell you to act with your wife. Does she know that you don't believe in god? Perhaps you could ease her into accepting your stance by telling her that you have doubts.  You could even say that you don't believe in hell. There are Christians who also don't believe in hell also so it might not freak her out too badly if you express disbelief. 

Jewish people don't believe in hell, at least not the Christian version of hell, so perhaps you could point out to her that Jesus would not have believed in the Christian  hell either

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cd...n-Hell.htm

I would read mythology with my son and explain that people invented gods, not because they were stupid, but because they didn't know how else to explain things like lightning and death. Later you can read the book of Genesis with him with the same critical eye. You can even point out the cruelty of god in  those stories

I read this book multiple times in the fourth and fifth grade. Maybe your son would enjoy you reading this to him?
http://www.audible.com/pd/Kids/DAulaires...1653732460

It isn't like turning on a switch, you know.  They have spent years indoctrinating you into their superstitions and you've made remarkable progress in rejecting them but you are still surrounded by them and just because you have come to your senses does not mean that they have.  It will take time to throw off these inane dogmas which xtians spout with such certainty.

Try to limit your conversations with your associates to mundane topics and save the heavy thinking for here. We have just enough theists around here to serve as bad examples.

Meanwhile, read Chris Hitchens "God is Not Good."

Welcome.

(June 17, 2015 at 12:10 pm)Nope Wrote: There is no hell. It doesn't make sense. The bible god is supposed to love everyone and yet, he sends people to an eternity of torment because they commit some finite crime. Religion decides what actions constitute a sin. So, a child murderer that asked forgiveness will be in heaven but two gay men might go to hell only because they had sex with one another. 

I don't know how to tell you to act with your wife. Does she know that you don't believe in god? Perhaps you could ease her into accepting your stance by telling her that you have doubts.  You could even say that you don't believe in hell. There are Christians who also don't believe in hell also so it might not freak her out too badly if you express disbelief. 

Jewish people don't believe in hell, at least not the Christian version of hell, so perhaps you could point out to her that Jesus would not have believed in the Christian  hell either

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cd...n-Hell.htm

I would read mythology with my son and explain that people invented gods, not because they were stupid, but because they didn't know how else to explain things like lightning and death. Later you can read the book of Genesis with him with the same critical eye. You can even point out the cruelty of god in  those stories

I read this book multiple times in the fourth and fifth grade. Maybe your son would enjoy you reading this to him?
http://www.audible.com/pd/Kids/DAulaires...1653732460

Thank you for the reply and the links.

I openly preach in my home that there is no hell.  I got into a bit of social trouble at church when my eldest pointed this out in Sunday school.  We read about the ancient myths openly because they are cool stories, but I'm also quick to point out to my son that the bible is just another story as well.

My wife knows that I am more a deist than anything, but she also knows that I love Christ.  She sees my sincerity on that point.  She's the type of person who will believe something if told it without investigating or giving much thought to it, because that's her personality.  When we talk about it, I say "God gave us faith, hope, and love... and if the greatest of these is love, then I'd like to think hoping that these things are true will account for my lack of faith."  But even then, do I really *want* these things to be true?  Do I want my God to be the type that commands genocide?  Or stoning children?  No, I don't want these things to be true.  I want to have my cake and eat it.  I want God to be the hippy-Christ who loves everyone and everything's just splendid, but I want none of the eternal torment.

The problem is, there is absolutely no truth to the story and no evidence that a loving God exists.  I just worry that I would be taking something good away from my family because it is the Church that gives them so much happiness.

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(June 17, 2015 at 12:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It isn't like turning on a switch, you know.  They have spent years indoctrinating you into their superstitions and you've made remarkable progress in rejecting them but you are still surrounded by them and just because you have come to your senses does not mean that they have.  It will take time to throw off these inane dogmas which xtians spout with such certainty.

Try to limit your conversations with your associates to mundane topics and save the heavy thinking for here. We have just enough theists around here to serve as bad examples.

Meanwhile, read Chris Hitchens "God is Not Good."

Welcome.

Thank you!

The irrational fear is almost intolerable.  I was less scared in actual situations where I could have been shot or blown up.  I have trouble convincing myself that there will be no eternal consequence for leaving the idea of God behind.

I'll tell you what made me question it all.  I mean, I read about the fundamentals critically, but I wasn't ready to cast it off.  What's pushing me over the edge... was watching Neil deGrasse Tyson's Cosmos.  Realizing the majesty of the whole of existence and that it does not require a personal god, made my God seem so small.

I enjoy Hitchens talks on YouTube.  I've just not read his books yet.  I will pick up a copy.

Thanks again.

Well, if you haven't, see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

Fear very often -is- entirely irrational.  Knowing that doesn't make it less fearful.  That mostly has to do with fear being an actual thing, an electro-chemical cocktail  with effects which do not depend upon your knowledge of them -or- their nature.   Fear is autonomous.  

There's no reason that your god can't be the being that you want him to be, btw.  I don't see the holdup, the gods you've heard about are all the way they are because -someone- wanted them to be that way....yours wouldn't be any different on that count.

Preach a hippy christ to your family, man.  Preach a hell-less afterlife.  I don't really think that the church can be given credit for your families happiness...but if that -is- the case then maybe you should work to tip the scales....maybe- you- should endeavor to bring more happiness to your family?  Truth be told...you can;t really keep the church in any of their lives in any case.  They could just fall away (as many do) and if the church is their source of happiness...then what?  You can;t do anything about that potentiality, but you can at least bring some other source of happiness into their lives to hedge against the fear which clearly consumes your thoughts on this issue.

(June 17, 2015 at 11:47 am)Spacetime Wrote: My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

I wonder how god feels at seeing her apologize for him. I'll bet he's pretty pissed, and probably even moved her name from the "heaven" list to the "don't piss off god, you stupid cunt" list.

You should definitely read things on the subject, as it will help you have greater confidence in your ideas about there not being a god, and in the absurdity of Christianity.  What would be best depends on your temperament and so forth, so I am hesitant to make any specific recommendations.  Do your atheist parents have any suggestions, or do you not wish to talk with them about this for some reason?

And welcome to the forum!

Hello, welcome

I'm very sorry to hear what you've been through, and are going through. For what it's worth I can confirm that religion is bullshit, and hell is a man-made concept to bully people into compliance. [There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary]

It's normal for the sting and the fear to remain for a while, but it usually does fade in time. Consider how much time you've spent worrying about other gods judging you, and other possible "hells"? Most likely no time at all because you know they are made up, and this is no different.

I firmly believe there is nothing religion offers that cannot be achieved through other means. Deciding how to talk to others about it is very difficult, if it's any use I have a bit on my website with a few ideas here.

(June 17, 2015 at 12:40 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Well, if you haven't, see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

Holy. Shit.

Thank you for that.

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(June 17, 2015 at 12:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Fear very often -is- entirely irrational.  Knowing that doesn't make it less fearful.  That mostly has to do with fear being an actual thing, an electro-chemical cocktail  with effects which do not depend upon your knowledge of them -or- their nature.   Fear is autonomous.  

There's no reason that your god can't be the being that you want him to be, btw.  I don't see the holdup, the gods you've heard about are all the way they are because -someone- wanted them to be that way....yours wouldn't be any different on that count.

Preach a hippy christ to your family, man.  Preach a hell-less afterlife.  I don't really think that the church can be given credit for your families happiness...but if that -is- the case then maybe you should work to tip the scales....maybe- you- should endeavor to bring more happiness to your family?  Truth be told...you can;t really keep the church in any of their lives in any case.  They could just fall away (as many do) and if the church is their source of happiness...then what?  You can;t do anything about that potentiality, but you can at least bring some other source of happiness into their lives to hedge against the fear which clearly consumes your thoughts on this issue.

You're right about the sting of this sort of irrational fear.  I've never felt so uncomfortable as I do right now, at this moment.

And you're exactly right on the point of my god being the thing I want it to be.

I don't suppose the Church is what has made them happy, but it will certainly be difficult to compete with it.  But I should, as you said, endeavor to.

Thank you for your reply!

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(June 17, 2015 at 12:46 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 11:47 am)Spacetime Wrote: My own Grandmother threatened me with hell.  A girl I liked in high school... I asked her "So if I don't believe in Jesus, but am a good person, I'm still going to go to hell?"  When she said "I'm sorry, but yes."  I literally burst into tears in art class.

I wonder how god feels at seeing her apologize for him.  I'll bet he's pretty pissed, and probably even moved her name from the "heaven" list to the "don't piss off god, you stupid cunt" list.

lol ... she was this perfect, permed, and primped thing every boy wanted.  I think I even had a chance, until I burst into tears like a bitch.

I needed that laugh.  Thanks!

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(June 17, 2015 at 12:48 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: You should definitely read things on the subject, as it will help you have greater confidence in your ideas about there not being a god, and in the absurdity of Christianity.  What would be best depends on your temperament and so forth, so I am hesitant to make any specific recommendations.  Do your atheist parents have any suggestions, or do you not wish to talk with them about this for some reason?

And welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately, they are my only personal experience with atheists, and they are very bad ones at that.

If I tried to talk to them about it, there would be "told you so" moments that would make this thing so much more difficult than it already is.

Thank you!

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(June 17, 2015 at 12:50 pm)robvalue Wrote: Hello, welcome

I'm very sorry to hear what you've been through, and are going through. For what it's worth I can confirm that religion is bullshit, and hell is a man-made concept to bully people into compliance. [There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary]

It's normal for the sting and the fear to remain for a while, but it usually does fade in time. Consider how much time you've spent worrying about other gods judging you, and other possible "hells"? Most likely no time at all because you know they are made up, and this is no different.

I firmly believe there is nothing religion offers that cannot be achieved through other means. Deciding how to talk to others about it is very difficult, if it's any use I have a bit on my website with a few ideas here.

I've lived my life entirely in fear of this concept of being "outside of God's grace".  Like most men, I'm a fixer.  Show me the problem, I'll fix it.  The problem with Christianity is, you can't do that.  It doesn't fix anything.  It only confuses your problems further.  Once I ditched the doctrine of "once saved, always saved", I had to accept that I could do things to lose my salvation.  Holy crap, what a bad thing to have over your head.  It turned me into a heavy drinker and sent me into the worst depression, because I struggle to meet God's standards.  And the doctrine of the Church is always there to make you feel so fucking horrible about yourself.

It makes me wonder if I can live a more holy life, if I didn't have this thing hovering over me making me want to sin to self-medicate my depression that the thing itself has caused.

I don't know when or where, but I have sort of made myself promise to talk to my wife about this soon.  Maybe she'll be down with sleeping in on Sundays. 

Thank you so much!