(July 3, 2015 at 4:30 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 3, 2015 at 3:58 pm)Lek Wrote: You're making my point for me.  I don't align myself with those who disobey Jesus and preach hate.  I'm just making the point that christians don't have a monopoly on hating and killing.  In fact, when anybody does that, they are going against the teachings of christianity.  Since when is thinking someone is acting immorally hating that person.  If I think someone is doing something wrong does that mean I hate them?  Do you hate christians when you blast their immorality?  I don't think that all those vocal Democrats in the political forum actually hate all Republicans.

Name one dictator that killed in the name of atheism or your argument falls.

You countered the claim that christians do nasty things in the name of god with atheists doing nasty things not in the name of atheism.

It doesn't matter whether YOU think they're going against the teachings of christianity or not. They believe in your god, they are christians and that's the reason for their actions.

You preach discrimination. 'I love you, but I don't think you deserve equal treatment'? No. That is not love.

It doesn't matter in what name I murder or hate someone in. It just matters that I've murdered or hated someone. How about all the christian people who don't murder or hate because they are christians? How about all the atheists who hate christians? As far as equal treatment for all, if you read my posts in the topics concerning gay marriage you'll find that I do believe in equal treatment.

The OP makes it clear that we're talking about christians who behave immorally in the name of god. That's the point. You replied with the typical atheist dictator argument. Don't turn this around.

(July 3, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: The OP makes it clear that we're talking about christians who behave immorally in the name of god. That's the point. You replied with the typical atheist dictator argument. Don't turn this around.

Okay. I'm done.

GC Wrote:You watch to much Hollywood drama for your info, the scriptures do not say Moses and Aaron burst, in before Pharaoh and the guards wouldn't allow such an intrusion, their lives depended on protecting Pharaoh.

ESQ Wrote:Moses and Aaron entered Pharaoh's place without permission, passing the guards in such a way that he was shocked that they'd made it to him. I actually went back and read the relevant scriptures before my last post to confirm this, so I know which parts of your desperate excuses are and are not present in the text; suffice it to say that I shan't be engaging with the self serving interpretations of a fantasist like you, and will be sticking to the actual scripture... which I had done in my last post.

Care to show me the verses that said Moses and Aaron did what you say.

Quote:Here's a break down of Pharaoh's denials and God's action towards them.

Exodus 5:2 .....I (Pharaoh) will not let the people of Israel go.  This is Pharaoh's first refusal and nothing is said of God hardening his heart.

ESQ Wrote:Yes, and no evidence is offered either: Moses and Aaron just roll up and demand that he let their people go because of something they claim to have experienced, but Pharaoh had not. If I'd come up to you and demanded you do something based on the command of a god that I claim to exist, but you have no evidence for, would you do what I say?

Yes there is evidence, at least for those who understand the entire story, anytime God hardens Pharaoh's heart the scriptures say He does.
No I wouldn't, and I never said that Pharaoh would respond any differently than he did. for good reason I wouldn't believe you, I know my God and He's the only God, so you would not have anything to offer me. Moses and Aaron did as they were instructed, the demand actually came from God.

Quote:Moses was told by God He would harden Pharaoh's heart when Moses and Aaron meet with Pharaoh the second time and this is recorded in Exodus 7:13  Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD said.

ESQ Wrote:So here's where god starts his magic brainwashing campaign to make it impossible for Pharaoh to obey god in any case.

This is your answer to the scripture I supplied, you call this reasonable logical disagreement I suppose.

Quote:This happened after the plague of gnats, Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Nothing in this passage leads one to believe God had hardened his heart again.

ESQ Wrote:Nothing in the passage prior leads one to believe that god's heart-hardening was temporary, either. Nor that god had rescinded his brainwashing; this is just you making shit up that isn't in the text in order to excuse god, but neither of us has any evidentiary leg up in this case. The last thing we hear on this issue is "god hardened Pharaoh's heart," after all.

Every time God hardens Pharaoh's heart, the scriptures record it without question, why would God need to harden Pharaoh's heart over and over, once God hardened it it would remain that way and the scriptures would say, "because God had hardened his heart." Even you have admitted that God could harden his heart and it would remain that way, that is unless God relented.

I also see, so to better your argument, you left out the verse I posted where it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart, which by the way and as you know came after God hardened Pharaoh's heart the first time. Now how could Pharaoh harden his heart if God still had his heart hardened. Leaving out points in the argument is dishonest, especially those that go against your argument.

Quote:This happens after the plague of flies. Exodus 8:25 Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and said, "Go, sacrifice to your God within the land."  Then in Exodus 8:28 So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go to sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you must not go very far away. Plead for me. Here Pharaoh has started to relent showing God had not yet permanently hardened his heart.

ESQ Wrote:Or it could be Pharaoh desperately struggling against god's brainwashing because his rational mind has had sufficient evidence to change, but god won't let him. See? I can make things up that aren't present in the text too!

You make things up all the time, at least this time you admitted you made it up an it has no rational bases. I on the other hand have give evidence to what I have said, even though when you replied you left out the verse that shows Pharaoh hardened his own heart after God had the first time. I've also given reasonable thought and evidence that God relented and allowed Pharaoh the chance to change his mind because he had seen the great power of God. God gave him this chance because Pharaoh did not know who God was and God being just gave Pharaoh another and even more chances after he admitted to knowing God's great power. God set out to prove Pharaoh was a self centered man who cared more about his own self worth than his own people. God also set out to prove to Pharaoh and Egypt that He is the LORD God and would protect His people and had the power to free them. But none of this would have had to happen if Pharaoh had only relented to God's asking.
Have a good 4th weekend, I probably want be back until Monday.

GC

(July 1, 2015 at 2:19 pm)Drich Wrote: We can only know the mind of God in so far as what has been written. What has been written from the point of Past events (even though for us it speaks of the future) is of the ever increasing iniquity of man. To the point of God seizing control of the earth from man, breaking the seal and pouring out his wrath. We know the SCOTUS' decision is not in compliance with God or His law/will for us. therefore one can observe yet another piece or component being placed into play that will end the reign of man.

Why couldn't your fucking god even swing one vote on the court, drippy?  Exactly how inept do you consider him to be?

More to the point, how fucking inept are you?

(July 3, 2015 at 4:50 am)TubbyTubby Wrote: You know, I'm interested in these theist/atheist discussions but I can feel a shift in my willingness to even read posts that quote scripture and try to interpret and justify it.

It just seems so futile and ridiculous that it almost seems like I'm reading a film script and not the real thoughts of real adults. Perhaps it's just me.

An example from GC (I'm not picking on you personally GC, it's just the most recent one)...

"By the way this Pharaoh did know Moses and possibly Aaron. Pharaoh was given his evidence but he thought more of himself, ( self interest, the original sin) than he did of his people. Pharaoh started the process of hardening his heart against God and when he wouldn't relent, God said enough is enough and put an end to it."

Now, to me, the fact that those type of thoughts exist in peoples heads is starting to seem completely alien to me. That someone places so much value in these ancient stories that it steers their entire life to the detriment of anything else starts to really sadden me if I ponder it for too long.

It's not just me is it?

It's a fact that the ancient Middle Eastern empires were constantly at each others' throats 24/7/365.  Most of the Old Testament stories are simply war stories coated with layers of ethnocentric religious BS.  The God character was simply the meanest SOB in charge at the particular time the story episode is about.  

There's no invisible sky deity with a herd of multiple-winged creatures going about doing his dirty work.  The creatures who do good and bad things are simply humans like us.  And we can do those things at the same time for any reason or no reason.  

Gods, devils, angels, demons, spirits, and ghosts don't exist in this solar system.

(July 3, 2015 at 2:59 pm)Lek Wrote:

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(June 30, 2015 at 11:55 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Dear Christians,

The god of the bible has promised, without disclaimer, to grant any request made to him by his followers.  Millions of Christians prayed while protesting on court steps all over the US for their god to prevent the legalization of gay marriage.  No help.  Nine devout parishioners in a bible study were gunned down by a racist in their own “house of god.”  Was god there for them?  No help.  Leave prayer in our schools.  No help.  Leave the bible in our courtrooms.  No help.  Millions of innocent children stricken with Cancer.  No help.  Protect our church in this recent rash of tornados.  No help.  On and on and on it goes.  The pleas and desperate prayers of Christians just keep going unheard and unanswered. 
 
Well Christians, perhaps it isn’t that your god doesn’t like us – it’s that he doesn’t like you…
Hmmm, maybe your god doesn’t appreciate you muddying his name with the myriad of headlines that contain the reprehensible nature of "god-serving citizens."  These are taken word for word from recent news stories:
 
   “Protesters of same-sex marriage were also there, calling others in the crowd perverts”…“Many of the protesters against same-sex marriage were not subtle, shouting and carrying signs such as “Fags are Beasts.””
 
   "I saw you there (at the rally) on the side of the children of darkness. Christ is coming soon. Please don't be lost. The fires of Hell are real."
 
   “it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them," said Anderson in the just over one-hour session. Prior to that, he had argued that women who wear mini-skirts were dressing like "whores" and that it was inappropriate for women to wear pants.”
 
   “Council of Conservative Citizens a Christian hate group that routinely denigrates blacks as “genetically inferior,” complains about “Jewish power brokers,”    calls homosexuals “perverted sodomites,” accuses immigrants of turning America into a “slimy brown mass of glop,”
 
    “a Christian lawyer living in California has proposed that the state start executing all gay people with bullets to the head.”


      “A gay Tennessee couple was reportedly attacked — physically and verbally assaulted — by a Christian Pastor and his deacons to prevent the same-sex couple from entering the Pastor’s church. Sadly, the pastor is the father of one of the two members of the gay couple. Also sadly, the church members and bystanders did not lift a finger to help the couple or to stop church leaders from perpetrating the crime. Further, initially, local authorities refused to allow the couple to file charges.”
 
     “Campus Crusade for Christ—now rebranded, ludicrously, as “Cru”—is a massive organization, and involved in some of the meanest homophobia-for-export in Africa.”
 

These are real legit stories.  There are thousands upon thousands of these sorts of stories all over the world.  Christians doing horrible things to anyone and everyone they disagree with and using your precious god as the almighty justification to be ignorant violent bigots.  Maybe you can’t catch a break any more because your god is just really sick of you.  Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s nothing more than the ink and paper machinations of primitive tent dwellers, but if you really believe he’s real, I think you should seriously consider that he just really can’t stand any of you.
 
[color=black][size=small][font=Arial, sans-serif]Consider it, don’t consider it … it doesn’t matter.  Your religion is dying and it seems obvious to me that you Christians are the biggest reason for it's inevitable demise.  200 years from now, you will be a joke, and any remaining zealots will be a fringe cult that even your great great grand children will long to be rid of.

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Quote:And let's not forgot those great atheists of the 20th and 21st centuries :  Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un, along with many other loving atheists who were responsible for way more slaughter of innocents than any christians of the time.  I suggest you get off your high horse and stop preaching hate and defaming billions of decent christians.

Just remember, when Jesus returns he will kill all life and destroy the world.   As for those billions of decent Christians it's doubtful if any of them will make it into the gaudy bejeweled gold cube called New Jerusalem since there's no gate for anyone to enter if he isn't a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.  

(July 3, 2015 at 7:09 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Just remember, when Jesus returns he will kill all life and destroy the world.   As for those billions of decent Christians it's doubtful if any of them will make it into the gaudy bejeweled gold cube called New Jerusalem since there's no gate for anyone to enter if he isn't a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.  

That's okay.  I don't like crowded big cities anyway.  I just want him to give me a place somewhere on the new earth.  Then I won't have to live along side of all those nasty Jews.

(July 3, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 2:19 pm)Drich Wrote: We can only know the mind of God in so far as what has been written. What has been written from the point of Past events (even though for us it speaks of the future) is of the ever increasing iniquity of man. To the point of God seizing control of the earth from man, breaking the seal and pouring out his wrath. We know the SCOTUS' decision is not in compliance with God or His law/will for us. therefore one can observe yet another piece or component being placed into play that will end the reign of man.

Why couldn't your fucking god even swing one vote on the court, drippy?  Exactly how inept do you consider him to be?

More to the point, how fucking inept are you?

Again, Minnie look at the book of revelation. We have been given over to the evil that will trigger God's wrath and the end of the reign of man. Why would God want to turn one vote if His plan is to give us enough slack to hang our selves?

Drippy, only a shithead like you would believe a word of that utter fucking nonsense.  Don't you know that your precious book of shit only made it into the "bible" because the committee voted it in and that not until 419.  Even Martin Luther thought it was a pile of shit.

Grow up, man.  You are embarrassing yourself.