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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 8:35 am
(September 21, 2015 at 7:21 am)houseofcantor Wrote: Apologies for the "wall of me" right there. Enjoying this thread. Reminds me of an area where af has it all over tta, to wit the number of deep and reasoned thinkers. Good job, peeps.
Not that I'm really qualified to judge intelligent discourse. 
(August 6, 2015 at 4:36 pm)Cephus Wrote: I took on the Quinque Viae a long time ago and found it utterly laughable, I'm sure you're going to find the same thing because of all of the claims made, none of them lead to any specific gods, apologists just say "See! My God!" Yeah... not so much.
My comment is awaiting administrative approval - you theist you!
Funny you should post that. Esqilax's blog post has yet to appear. His post was all bluff.
And if you read through the link provided by Ceph it takes you to a series of strawman arguments. It is as though he never even read Aquinas.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 9:19 am
(September 21, 2015 at 8:35 am)ChadWooters Wrote: It is as though he never even read Aquinas.
Can't say as I'd blame him.
I was reading a blog from a renowned Christian apologist making hay from Aquinas, and although I thought I understood the thrust of his arguments, it was tediously boring. And I liked the guy. 
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 9:22 am
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2015 at 9:23 am by robvalue.)
(September 21, 2015 at 6:46 am)MysticKnight Wrote: How will you be guided by the Guide/Leader of our time, then? People don't see him, but there has to be a Guide towards God that is aware of our states and can guide us through out the journey, and show us inwardly how to act in each stage by means of his light and power of God's Command.
If you say no I cannot be guided by a Leader and Guide that most of humanity is veiled from, then, you have given up on the journey before you even got started!
What does this mean? I literally have no idea.
Leader of our time? What is this?
I don't know if you're actually seeing things, or just looking at stuff and assuming meaning that I don't assign. I want to talk to you, but I have real trouble understanding what you're saying.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 10:48 am
(September 21, 2015 at 9:22 am)robvalue Wrote: (September 21, 2015 at 6:46 am)MysticKnight Wrote: How will you be guided by the Guide/Leader of our time, then? People don't see him, but there has to be a Guide towards God that is aware of our states and can guide us through out the journey, and show us inwardly how to act in each stage by means of his light and power of God's Command.
If you say no I cannot be guided by a Leader and Guide that most of humanity is veiled from, then, you have given up on the journey before you even got started!
What does this mean? I literally have no idea.
Leader of our time? What is this?
I don't know if you're actually seeing things, or just looking at stuff and assuming meaning that I don't assign. I want to talk to you, but I have real trouble understanding what you're saying. One thing you should know that is I'm schizophrenic. For a time, I took my experiences as all that, whether if I see devils or spirits/souls of dead people or a metaphysical reality like the tree of tuba, as all part of my illness. But then when believe in Islam and knew you are suppose to experience spiritual visions in the spiritual world, I said perhaps I am tried with this.
Of course if I see people appearing on the streets and I say "by the name of God" and they disappear, like a man with a chain saw, I know this is a hallucination.
But if I get guidance in form of Worship, and I am being shown states to imitate that I myself don't know how to really fully practice but do my best to imitate the beauty and glory that I am shown...then this is not something my mind simply knows automatically and is deceiving me.
Of course my experiences are not a proof against anyone because I'm schizophrenic. I'm on a heavy dose of medications so don't worry about that.
Also, you can see what you see is a reality, a truth, and not just a hallucination. I don't know how to explain it, but I know it's part of my trial in this world to distinguish between genuine experiences and hallucinations.
However, I perfectly understand if people take all that I experience as part of my schizophrenia.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 10:54 am
I'm sorry to hear that you have to put up with all that, it must be horrible 
Well, I won't bore you with my opinion. It's up to you ultimately to decide what to make of what you experience.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 10:59 am
(September 21, 2015 at 10:54 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm sorry to hear that you have to put up with all that, it must be horrible
It's not that bad. You just take everyday one day at a time, and hope for a brighter future, and work towards it.
Quote:It's up to you ultimately to decide what to make of what you experience.
Thank you.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
September 21, 2015 at 11:25 am
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2015 at 11:39 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Rather than accept your condition and all that this entails, you've decided to subscribe to a reinforcing delusion of religious belief? Down this road lay only tears, my friend.
Has it ever occurred to you that both the chainsaw wielding mans appearance -and- disappearance.....are hallucinations? That, when you say "by the name of god " you are -still- hallucinating when you see him disappear? People don't just appear -or- disappear, Mystic. It's not just the effect..but also the guidance that forms the fabric of your delusions - from what you've just described. That these experiences are a trial, and one in which you invoke divine assistance - of all things-..which somehow "works", is no more or less hallucinatory than the experiences themselves. It's not a trial...you received no divine assistance, no glory and beauty has been -shown- to you......you're just sick.
-Slightly off topic, but seeing as how you're sharing (and of course there's no compulsion to continue).....when you left us for awhile, did you hit a rough spot?
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