Would They Die for a Lie?

[Jehanne]

Drich,

What your own quotes prove is that the Empire persecuted some early Christians for political reasons and not for their religious beliefs.

[Vicki Q]

Drich,

What your own quotes prove is that the Empire persecuted some early Christians for political reasons and not for their religious beliefs.

In those days there wasn't the politics/religion distinction there is now. They were too closely intertwined to be separated.

Hence the problem. A movement that declared Jesus as king (Christ) was already in big trouble with the Romans; it would have been taken as another in the series of minor rebellions. A movement that declared the Temple on its way out would have got you in big trouble with the Jewish authorities. A movement which said that being Jewish didn't get you to be one of the People of God any more got you in big trouble with the ordinary Jewish people. A movement which said that people should abandon the city deities got you in big trouble with the Greek cities.

What did 'big trouble' look like? Read the NT.

Agreed that the persecution didn't officially come close to Nazi-Jew, but it happened, and much of it would have been local incidents by local thugs that never made official records.

For an impartial summary of the official evidence, the BBC is, as always, excellent:

Here

[DeistPaladin]

The point of the OP is that religious fanaticism and persecution prove nothing.

[Jehanne]

Drich,

What your own quotes prove is that the Empire persecuted some early Christians for political reasons and not for their religious beliefs.

In those days there wasn't the politics/religion distinction there is now. They were too closely intertwined to be separated.

Hence the problem. A movement that declared Jesus as king (Christ) was already in big trouble with the Romans; it would have been taken as another in the series of minor rebellions. A movement that declared the Temple on its way out would have got you in big trouble with the Jewish authorities. A movement which said that being Jewish didn't get you to be one of the People of God any more got you in big trouble with the ordinary Jewish people. A movement which said that people should abandon the city deities got you in big trouble with the Greek cities.

What did 'big trouble' look like? Read the NT.

Agreed that the persecution didn't officially come close to Nazi-Jew, but it happened, and much of it would have been local incidents by local thugs that never made official records.

For an impartial summary of the official evidence, the BBC is, as always, excellent:

Here

The earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus was "king"; all of that came later.

[Drich]

Drich,

What your own quotes prove is that the Empire persecuted some early Christians for political reasons and not for their religious beliefs.

Then why were they identified as being christian they were killed and if they renounced the faith they were spared?

Did you even think or read the letter between pliny the younger (the governor and the emperor?)

They only qualification for death was the fact that the followers would not renounce christianity. they were even tortured to see if they would recant their faith if they did they lived if they didn't they were executed. and the emperor supported this!

Again put everything aside besides these two facts if the stated they were believers they died and if the recanted their beliefs they lived. this was written out in a well document vetted letter between a regional governor and the then emperor of rome. You can not get or official than that. the fact that the only condition for killing christians if they would not recant the faith PROVES RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!

---

In those days there wasn't the politics/religion distinction there is now. They were too closely intertwined to be separated.

Hence the problem. A movement that declared Jesus as king (Christ) was already in big trouble with the Romans; it would have been taken as another in the series of minor rebellions. A movement that declared the Temple on its way out would have got you in big trouble with the Jewish authorities. A movement which said that being Jewish didn't get you to be one of the People of God any more got you in big trouble with the ordinary Jewish people. A movement which said that people should abandon the city deities got you in big trouble with the Greek cities.

What did 'big trouble' look like? Read the NT.

Agreed that the persecution didn't officially come close to Nazi-Jew, but it happened, and much of it would have been local incidents by local thugs that never made official records.

For an impartial summary of the official evidence, the BBC is, as always, excellent:

Here

The earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus was "king"; all of that came later.

that's not true. He was sent before pilate by the sanhedrin because he claimed to be king of the jews. then pilate asked if this was true, He said his kingdom is not of this earth. even so he was beaten and crucified with a sign above his head that stated "king of the Jews."

It's like everything you say is wrong.. 

maybe you ought ask questions rather than make definitive statements with no backing. It doesn't seem to suit you very well.

[The Grand Nudger]

That would be john, which expresses the very last iteration of christian thought before it's calcification.

[Vicki Q]

The earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus was "king"; all of that came later.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this. Please unpack. Paul called Jesus Kyrios ('Lord', a Caesar designation), thereby denying that the emperor was Kyrios. And so on and so on and so on.

---

The point of the OP is that religious fanaticism and persecution prove nothing.

This needs careful definitions, but going with what I think you/he are saying:

The examples given merely demonstrate that people will die for a belief they have, even if that belief is incorrect. The Waco thing is moreover rather more complex, in that there's a lot of vagueness around who did what and why.

Maybe a counter-example or two could be found in which people died for something they knew to be untrue. That doesn't alter the fact that such things are extremely rare. For the very earliest Christian disciples to head off in different directions into a lifetime of getting beaten up and killed, without at some point eventually going 'You know what, I'm just going back home to watch box sets on Netflix because this is rubbish', strikes me as really quite unbelievable.


I mean you have to believe in what you're doing to put yourself through all this:


Ouch.

[DeistPaladin]

This needs careful definitions, but going with what I think you/he are saying:

The examples given merely demonstrate that people will die for a belief they have, even if that belief is incorrect. The Waco thing is moreover rather more complex, in that there's a lot of vagueness around who did what and why.

Maybe a counter-example or two could be found in which people died for something they knew to be untrue. That doesn't alter the fact that such things are extremely rare. For the very earliest Christian disciples to head off in different directions into a lifetime of getting beaten up and killed, without at some point eventually going 'You know what, I'm just going back home to watch box sets on Netflix because this is rubbish', strikes me as really quite unbelievable.


I mean you have to believe in what you're doing to put yourself through all this:


Ouch.

As far as what the Disciples themselves went through, we only have folklore from Christian sources. The later Christian persecution under Nero was a pogrom where they were blamed as arsonists for the fire that burned much of Rome. It's fair to say they didn't see that coming. The letter of Pliny also suggests persecution of second century Christians who did recant their faith under the lash. 

In modern times, examples abound of cultists and fanatics willing to die for their beliefs. Islam has produced plenty of examples and continues to do so. Fringe cults like the Heaven's Gate or the Jim Jones following produced tragic mass suicides, including their founders who ought to have known better. 

Why people are willing to die for crazy beliefs is a mystery to me but I can't deny that it happens. Fanaticism and persecution prove nothing.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nero would have blamed various seditious elements™, of which christians were a peice..not that he'd have known the difference between them and some random jew or any other then-undesirable.  The christians themselves weren't even clear on that by the time of nero and romans of various stripes were still unclear as to what christianity was decades later still.

-all of that..assuming that it actually happened at all.

[Jehanne]

Drich,

What your own quotes prove is that the Empire persecuted some early Christians for political reasons and not for their religious beliefs.

Then why were they identified as being christian they were killed and if they renounced the faith they were spared?

Did you even think or read the letter between pliny the younger (the governor and the emperor?)

They only qualification for death was the fact that the followers would not renounce christianity. they were even tortured to see if they would recant their faith if they did they lived if they didn't they were executed. and the emperor supported this!

Again put everything aside besides these two facts if the stated they were believers they died and if the recanted their beliefs they lived. this was written out in a well document vetted letter between a regional governor and the then emperor of rome. You can not get or official than that. the fact that the only condition for killing christians if they would not recant the faith PROVES RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!

---

The earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus was "king"; all of that came later.

that's not true. He was sent before pilate by the sanhedrin because he claimed to be king of the jews. then pilate asked if this was true, He said his kingdom is not of this earth. even so he was beaten and crucified with a sign above his head that stated "king of the Jews."

It's like everything you say is wrong.. 

maybe you ought ask questions rather than make definitive statements with no backing. It doesn't seem to suit you very well.

Drich,

No one in classical/Roman studies thinks like you do, or your Evangelical apologists.

Yes, the Empire did persecute some early Christians, but for political and not religious reasons; the Empire also persecute other groups for other reasons.  And, yes, thousands (not millions) of early Christians did die, but just many thousands also recanted and lived.

As for the literalness of the Gospels, few modern scholars take those accounts of Pilate seriously.

---

The earliest Christians did not believe that Jesus was "king"; all of that came later.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by this. Please unpack. Paul called Jesus Kyrios ('Lord', a Caesar designation), thereby denying that the emperor was Kyrios. And so on and so on and so on.

---

The point of the OP is that religious fanaticism and persecution prove nothing.

This needs careful definitions, but going with what I think you/he are saying:

The examples given merely demonstrate that people will die for a belief they have, even if that belief is incorrect. The Waco thing is moreover rather more complex, in that there's a lot of vagueness around who did what and why.

Maybe a counter-example or two could be found in which people died for something they knew to be untrue. That doesn't alter the fact that such things are extremely rare. For the very earliest Christian disciples to head off in different directions into a lifetime of getting beaten up and killed, without at some point eventually going 'You know what, I'm just going back home to watch box sets on Netflix because this is rubbish', strikes me as really quite unbelievable.


I mean you have to believe in what you're doing to put yourself through all this:


Ouch.

Vicky,

You need to read more modern New Testament criticism; here is a wonderful text:

A Brief Introduction to the New Testament 4th Edition

Dawn