Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[Drich]

Just a fyi

While yes in the beginning/moses era Jews believed one went to sheol/the grave but they also believed if you followed God's laws you would have a very lng life. long being key because the concept of eternity was a later construct.

Now during the time of Christ there were two very different views of the after life. The pharisees who were the Minority leaders in a two party religious system (kinda like the democrats are now) did indeed believe in an after life. but the Sadducees who were the religious leadership majority believed in a trict traditional approach. (which is why they are 'sad- you- see')/no after life.

Now after the destruction of the temple in 70ad the romans also kill ALL members of the sadducee leadership which also means their texts books records written and oral. very little remained. So the descendants now lest they are trying to recreate the old traditional beliefs believe or were taught to believe as the pharisees did.

So it's not a yes or no answer (did the jews believe in an after life) it a matter of what time period.

[tackattack]

---

A. I never stated Sodom and the story of Lot was about sexual deviance.
B. The Hebrew word for any kind of sin is avera, meaning transgression (God, man, self). There is Pesha, Avon and Cheit corresponding to intentional, knowing but not against God, and unintentional. There are 3 types of sin but they are all transgressions and apply to all people and only one can be atoned for.
B1. I guess I wasn't specific enough, so I'll admit I gave a wrong impression. I am talking about Sins against God, or Pesha, that Jews seek atonement for on Yom Kippur and through sacrifice.
C. Hebrews did believe in varying punishments (In this life and the next) so I suppose you were right if you want to call that levels. To the Jew though there was one word for sin. When we get to Deuteronomy we can discuss the Talmud talking about ALL people sinning many times.
C1. Sheol is different than Ghenna, but in Jewish understanding you either repent/suffer for all your mistakes and join the righteous in Heaven, or end up in Ghenna. That is no different from the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell. They just believed in an intermediary place of the dead called Sheol where you can still work off your debt, or enjoy a party.

D. It doesn't prove that it didn't inform the culture. Greek culture was pretty ok with same-sex relations, but when translated and preached by Greeks it was still a sin. That seems like a derailment and would require things outside Genesis.

E. Jews don't believe in original sin as a doctrine. The soul we are given is pure and we contaminate it with misdeeds. If they can't knowingly do any deeds than they remain pure.

You posted no references. You need references for anything you assert. Citations. Without them, anything you claim is dismissed.
Hebrews did not believe in "souls" ... that's a Christian/Greek dualistic (unwarranted) overlay. Hebrews were not dualists. (For dust thou art, and unto dust thou shall return")
Anyone who has studied Hebrew culture knows that.

Unfortunately, obviously, you know nothing about Hebrew culture. The name "Gehenna" came from the valley outside Jerusalem where trash was burned .. a constant fire. 
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

Hebrews (during the tribal era) did not believe in immortality. ALL the dead, ("shades") went to Sheol. They are NOTHING like "heaven" and "hell". 
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/...tradition/
The divine beings live in heaven. The dead do not go there. 
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...existence/
Apparently someone told you the Fundy Christian version of Hebrew thought, and you bought it. 

The rise of the concept of individualism, and individual immortality in Hebrew thought is a complex LONG and detailed study.
The study of the CHANGE from tribal values in which (for a Jew) "immortality" consisted in the continuation of the family in the male line, (pre-Exile) to what it became after the Exile,
is part if the huge study of the rise of Individualism in the West.

Even Paul did not believe in immortality for everyone. Only the saved are immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:53-55
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Paul was an Apocalyptic Jew ... and as such, being "exalted" (as the Jewish heroes were said to be) was the reward. (See Ehrman's latest book "How Jesus Became a God" the EXALTATION of a Jewish Preacher etc".)
This is part of the case Dr. B B Scott, (CHRISTIAN seminary Professor of NT) makes for the fact that the resurrection has been misunderstood, and mistranslated. He says the Greek word translated as "risen" (which is the same word used in Luke by Simeon in the temple "This child shall be responsible for the "RISE" and fall  of many in Israel" refers to a status change, (which would be totally consistent with Jewish culture, and since dead shades were not recognizable, the reason they don't recognize Jesus' shade), and not because they thought he physically rose from the dead.


Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Gehenna is also where Israel practiced child sacrifice. 

"The most extensive accounts of child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible refer to those carried out in Gehenna by two kings of Judah, Ahaz and Manasseh.
In the Book of Judges, the figure of Jephthah makes a vow to God, saying, "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering" (as worded in the New International Version). Jephthah succeeds in winning a victory, but when he returns to his home in Mizpah he sees his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels, outside. After allowing her two months preparation, Judges 11:39 states that Jephthah kept his vow. According to the commentators of the rabbinic Jewish tradition, Jepthah's daughter was not sacrificed, but was forbidden to marry and remained a spinster her entire life, fulfilling the vow that she would be devoted to the Lord.[16] The 1st-century CE Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, however, understood this to mean that Jephthah burned his daughter on Yahweh's altar,[17] whilst , late first century CE, wrote that Jephthah offered his daughter as a burnt offering because he could find no sage in Israel who would cancel his vow. In other words, this story of human sacrifice is not an order or requirement by God, but the punishment for those who vowed to sacrifice humans." 

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Ok bucky, I though we were sticking to Genesis, or at least old testament, but I'll try and stick with the OT at least.

1. Hebrews did believe in what is commonly referred to as a soul. It is the Spirit and is breath of God called nefesh, it is the breath and what animates us. I didn't say that Hebrews were substance dualists, because they weren't. They believed in a spirit and a body and that the 2 were inseparable. The breath of God (nefesh) was breathed into us by God and animates our flesh.

2. I did answer the baby killer question with item E. You can read https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...f-a-fetus/ from your site for more info on that.

3. From your own cited definition "and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. " and "The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna)."

So nothing like hell hunh...

4. Just so I cite your same source http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7440-heaven When I talked about the high place I was referring to shamayim.
"It is the dwelling-place of God, from which He looks down upon all the inhabitants of the earth (Ps. xi. 4; xxxiii. 13, 14), though the heavens and heaven's heaven do not contain Him (Isa. lxvi. 1; I Kings viii. 27). It is the dwelling-place also of the angels (Gen. xxi. 17, xxii. 11, xxviii. 12). From heaven comes the rain, the hail, and the lightning (Gen. viii. 2, xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23; Deut. xi. 11; Job xxxviii. 37). Yhwh, the God of Israel, is eminently the God of heaven " Do I need to look up Gan Eden and Gehinnom as well for you?

So nothing like heaven hunh....
4.1 The confusion was for my part though, I implied that sheol and ghenna were like heaven and hell in item C1, so my aplogies.

5. They did believe all of the dead, good and bad go to sheol, but I believe your google search, cherry picking definition missed the concept of why they were there.
Allow me to show you using your own source even though there's plenty more

"After death, the soul separates from the body and either goes straight to heaven (Gan Eden) or makes a stop in hell (Gehinnom) to purge itself of sins. In the End of Days, the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiles to Israel and the Temple will be rebuilt. Some time later, the dead will be resurrected and reunited with their souls. This new, perfected universe is known as the World to Come.This is a common–yet too simplistic–presentation of Jewish eschatology " - https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...ssiah-101/

While they may not really concern themselves with eschatology because they believe in both punishment and reward in both this world, and the world to come, it's clearly a thing.
You should check out some kosher kabbalah if you're interested in jewish eschatology - https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_...us-221.htm

[Bucky Ball]

Ok bucky, I though we were sticking to Genesis, or at least old testament, but I'll try and stick with the OT at least.

I posted nothing that did not relate to the topic at hand. It was immortality in Hebrew culture.

1. Hebrews did believe in what is commonly referred to as a soul. It is the Spirit and is breath of God called nefesh, it is the breath and what animates us. I didn't say that Hebrews were substance dualists, because they weren't. They believed in a spirit and a body and that the 2 were inseparable. The breath of God (nefesh) was breathed into us by God and animates our flesh.

No references, no citations. Dismissed. They did not believe in "souls'. You have no reference to substantiate that claim. The "breath of God" did animate them, and when that breath left, they were stone cold dead. No souls. They did NOT believe in personal immortality, (as anyone knows who has actually studied ancient Hebrew culture). It CHANGED, and we know why, and when ... apparently you don't. 

3. From your own cited definition "and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. " and "The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna)."

So nothing like hell hunh...

LOL. You can't possibly be serious. Again, IF you had ever studied that culture you would know how ignorant you are coming across. You also did not read the links I provided. 
I PROVED my point ... I don't have to make it again. 

4. Just so I cite your same source http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7440-heaven When I talked about the high place I was referring to shamayim.
"It is the dwelling-place of God, from which He looks down upon all the inhabitants of the earth (Ps. xi. 4; xxxiii. 13, 14), though the heavens and heaven's heaven do not contain Him (Isa. lxvi. 1; I Kings viii. 27). It is the dwelling-place also of the angels (Gen. xxi. 17, xxii. 11, xxviii. 12). From heaven comes the rain, the hail, and the lightning (Gen. viii. 2, xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23; Deut. xi. 11; Job xxxviii. 37). Yhwh, the God of Israel, is eminently the God of heaven "  Do I need to look up Gan Eden and Gehinnom as well for you?

So nothing like heaven hunh....

You are (again) kidding, right ? No one said there was no heaven ... I said heaven is NOT where dead shades went. Heaven was where the divine beings lived, (and since you know NOTHING about the current state of academic wok on the subject, there are all sorts of papers written on the concepts of divine beings and who lived in heaven ... it was NOT dead human shades.)

5. They did believe all of the dead, good and bad go to sheol, but I believe your google search, cherry picking definition missed the concept of why they were there.
Allow me to show you using your own source even though there's plenty more
[quote]
"After death, the soul separates from the body and either goes straight to heaven (Gan Eden) or makes a stop in hell (Gehinnom) to purge itself of sins. In the End of Days, the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiles to Israel and the Temple will be rebuilt. Some time later, the dead will be resurrected and reunited with their souls. This new, perfected universe is known as the World to Come.This is a common–yet too simplistic–presentation of Jewish eschatology " - https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...ssiah-101/

While they may not really concern themselves with eschatology because they believe in both punishment and reward in both this world, and the world to come, it's clearly a thing.
You should check out some kosher kabbalah if you're interested in jewish eschatology - https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_...us-221.htm

You cherry picked that from the "Messianic" section and they did NOT all (far from it) believe in messianism, as they do not today. Messianism was a minority position.  
We know when (and why) messianism arose ... it was a VERY late development. Fail. 

You're not doing so well here. 
You should ask your fundy school for your money back.

It is agreed among scholars, that one of the reasons the Hebrews had no interest in individual immortality, (no "souls" was that the surrounding religious practices of other Canaanite communities, held that the dead were powerful, and remained "present". They "ate" with them, they thought of them as a continued presence. They were a threat to monotheism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_F._Segal
In Segal's "Life After Death, a History of the Afterlife in the Religions of the West", (also quoted in Dr. BB Scott's "The Trouble With Resurrection" ... a Christian seminary professor of NT) he wrote "That the Bible LACKS a concrete narrative of the afterlife, as we have seen so often manifested in the (pagan) cultures around it, must, we suspect, not just be accidental or deficient; it must be part of the Biblical polemic against its environment....Practically every scholar who systematically surveys the oldest sections of the Biblical text is impressed with the lack of a beatific notion of the hereafter for anyone (p.121) 

You really should read both those books before you say anything more.

We know that when Saul had the Witch of Endor, conjure the shade of Samuel, (in Judges) he asked her, "What do you see ?" (only witches could see/recognize dead shades), she said "I see a DIVINE being, arising from the Earth".
The entire incident says worlds about how and what they thought about the dead, and dead shades.

https://www.bridgesforpeace.com/article/...e_naphash/

"Naphash is from the same root as another Hebrew word that appears over 700 times in the Scriptures. That word is nephesh, and it is a highly significant biblical term. It is often translated “soul”as well as heart, person, life, and mind. Although these terms make sense in many instances, the word is problematic in others simply because there is really no English equivalent to its real Hebrew meaning. To the Western thinker, the word “soul” usually relates to the inner person or the spirit of a man and is often contrasted with the outer man or the body. However, according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary, these oppositional concepts are Greek and Latin in origin and have no counterpart in Hebraic thought.

The basic meaning of the word nephesh, like naphash, has to do with taking a breath, and it refers to the very essence of life. It describes the whole person as a complete unit. When God created Adam, it was His breath that gave the man life, animated him, and empowered him to think and to speak and to love: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [naphesh]” (Gen. 2:7). It wasn’t that Adam was a body until God added a soul, the rabbis say. Adam was nothing but mud until God’s breath enlivened him, and he became the image of his Creator.

Although Hebrew thought does not make provision for the separation of body and soul as is common in Greek thought, it does contrast the inner and outer person in a very interesting manner. What we might call the “inner man” was, to the Hebrew, the total person as he viewed himself, while the “outer man” was how he appeared to others or was simply his reputation.

Nephesh meant he may have been a father, a husband, a son, a brother, a cousin; he was tall or short, thin or fat, healthy or ill, weak or strong; he was a member of a family, a clan, a community, a nation; his relationship with his God governed every aspect of his life; his every thought and action were geared toward obedient service to the Lord he loved. In all these different aspects, he viewed himself as one integrated, vibrant unit—nephesh. To those around him, however, he may have been known as a skilled craftsman, a generous giver, or a fearless fighter. Their understanding of him, or his reputation, was the only sense of an outer man the Hebrew would have recognized, and it was referred to as shem, or name.

[Bucky Ball]

And why is all this important here ? Because it changed. And unless one understands the context of the change, and what the change actually was, it is impossible to understand what comes later.

[tackattack]

I posted nothing that did not relate to the topic at hand. It was immortality in Hebrew culture.

Quoting the OP Grandizer I was just attempting to play by his rules when he stated "Anyway, since this is about Genesis and not any of the other books in the Bible, that's all I'll say here on this matter. "

1. Hebrews did believe in what is commonly referred to as a soul. It is the Spirit and is breath of God called nefesh, it is the breath and what animates us. I didn't say that Hebrews were substance dualists, because they weren't. They believed in a spirit and a body and that the 2 were inseparable. The breath of God (nefesh) was breathed into us by God and animates our flesh.

No references, no citations. Dismissed. They did not believe in "souls'. You have no reference to substantiate that claim. The "breath of God" did animate them, and when that breath left, they were stone cold dead. No souls. They did NOT believe in personal immortality, (as anyone knows who has actually studied ancient Hebrew culture). It CHANGED, and we know why, and when ... apparently you don't. 

The sadducees of Roman Judah did deny the existent of an afterlife. Ancient Judaism was practical in nature and there was no determined dogma on the afterlife. Much later it was developed and argued over - reference chabad.org . However we are talking about part of the soul that transcends death. The nefesh does go to the grave with the body in ancient belief. However, there is a level to souls in kabbalistic belief. I suggest you reference Yechida.
"Until, with the help of the screen, his black point, reaches the size of a small Partzuf, man is considered to have no soul, no Kli, and naturally, no light in him. The presence of even the smallest spiritual Partzuf, having the lights of Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama, Haya, Yechida (NaRaNHaY), indicates man’s birth and his leaving of the animal state (which we are used to consider human, by the way).

Man refers to man such a spiritual state where one has already passed the spiritual barrier (Machsom) separating this world from the spiritual one, the world of Assiya; i.e., one who has acquired the spiritual Kli called the soul. " reference

3. From your own cited definition "and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. " and "The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna)."

So nothing like hell hunh...

LOL. You can't possibly be serious. Again, IF you had ever studied that culture you would know how ignorant you are coming across. You also did not read the links I provided. 
I PROVED my point ... I don't have to make it again. 

I did read the link and cited a quote from it. If you choose to cherry pick your own source that's on you not me.

4. Just so I cite your same source http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7440-heaven When I talked about the high place I was referring to shamayim.
"It is the dwelling-place of God, from which He looks down upon all the inhabitants of the earth (Ps. xi. 4; xxxiii. 13, 14), though the heavens and heaven's heaven do not contain Him (Isa. lxvi. 1; I Kings viii. 27). It is the dwelling-place also of the angels (Gen. xxi. 17, xxii. 11, xxviii. 12). From heaven comes the rain, the hail, and the lightning (Gen. viii. 2, xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23; Deut. xi. 11; Job xxxviii. 37). Yhwh, the God of Israel, is eminently the God of heaven "  Do I need to look up Gan Eden and Gehinnom as well for you?

So nothing like heaven hunh....

You are (again) kidding, right ? No one said there was no heaven ... I said heaven is NOT where dead shades went. Heaven was where the divine beings lived, (and since you know NOTHING about the current state of academic wok on the subject, there are all sorts of papers written on the concepts of divine beings and who lived in heaven ... it was NOT dead human shades.)

OK so you agree there is a concept of Heaven, deny your own source that hell is a thing, and we agree that Jews believed their dead shades went to a place called Sheol. But you still believe you are congruent that there is no afterlife belief of the Jews? ... hrmm.. seems like I'm not the one confused. Really though it makes sense that a theological non-cognitivist views of God being nonsense are confused.

5. They did believe all of the dead, good and bad go to sheol, but I believe your google search, cherry picking definition missed the concept of why they were there.
Allow me to show you using your own source even though there's plenty more

"After death, the soul separates from the body and either goes straight to heaven (Gan Eden) or makes a stop in hell (Gehinnom) to purge itself of sins. In the End of Days, the Messiah will gather the Jewish exiles to Israel and the Temple will be rebuilt. Some time later, the dead will be resurrected and reunited with their souls. This new, perfected universe is known as the World to Come.This is a common–yet too simplistic–presentation of Jewish eschatology " - https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...ssiah-101/

While they may not really concern themselves with eschatology because they believe in both punishment and reward in both this world, and the world to come, it's clearly a thing.
You should check out some kosher kabbalah if you're interested in jewish eschatology - https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_...us-221.htm

You cherry picked that from the "Messianic" section and they did NOT all (far from it) believe in messianism, as they do not today. Messianism was a minority position.  
We know when (and why) messianism arose ... it was a VERY late development. Fail. 

You're not doing so well here. 
You should ask your fundy school for your money back.

It is agreed among scholars, that one of the reasons the Hebrews had no interest in individual immortality, (no "souls" was that the surrounding religious practices of other Canaanite communities, held that the dead were powerful, and remained "present". They "ate" with them, they thought of them as a continued presence. They were a threat to monotheism. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_F._Segal
In Segal's "Life After Death, a History of the Afterlife in the Religions of the West", (also quoted in Dr. BB Scott's "The Trouble With Resurrection" ... a Christian seminary professor of NT) he wrote "That the Bible LACKS a concrete narrative of the afterlife, as we have seen so often manifested in the (pagan) cultures around it, must, we suspect, not just be accidental or deficient; it must be part of the Biblical polemic against its environment....Practically every scholar who systematically surveys the oldest sections of the Biblical text is impressed with the lack of a beatific notion of the hereafter for anyone (p.121) 

You really should read both those books before you say anything more.

We know that when Saul had the Witch of Endor, conjure the shade of Samuel, (in Judges) he asked her, "What do you see ?" (only witches could see/recognize dead shades), she said "I see a DIVINE being, arising from the Earth".
The entire incident says worlds about how and what they thought about the dead, and dead shades.

https://www.bridgesforpeace.com/article/...e_naphash/

"Naphash is from the same root as another Hebrew word that appears over 700 times in the Scriptures. That word is nephesh, and it is a highly significant biblical term. It is often translated “soul”as well as heart, person, life, and mind. Although these terms make sense in many instances, the word is problematic in others simply because there is really no English equivalent to its real Hebrew meaning. To the Western thinker, the word “soul” usually relates to the inner person or the spirit of a man and is often contrasted with the outer man or the body. However, according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary, these oppositional concepts are Greek and Latin in origin and have no counterpart in Hebraic thought.

The basic meaning of the word nephesh, like naphash, has to do with taking a breath, and it refers to the very essence of life. It describes the whole person as a complete unit. When God created Adam, it was His breath that gave the man life, animated him, and empowered him to think and to speak and to love: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [naphesh]” (Gen. 2:7). It wasn’t that Adam was a body until God added a soul, the rabbis say. Adam was nothing but mud until God’s breath enlivened him, and he became the image of his Creator.

Although Hebrew thought does not make provision for the separation of body and soul as is common in Greek thought, it does contrast the inner and outer person in a very interesting manner. What we might call the “inner man” was, to the Hebrew, the total person as he viewed himself, while the “outer man” was how he appeared to others or was simply his reputation.

Nephesh meant he may have been a father, a husband, a son, a brother, a cousin; he was tall or short, thin or fat, healthy or ill, weak or strong; he was a member of a family, a clan, a community, a nation; his relationship with his God governed every aspect of his life; his every thought and action were geared toward obedient service to the Lord he loved. In all these different aspects, he viewed himself as one integrated, vibrant unit—nephesh. To those around him, however, he may have been known as a skilled craftsman, a generous giver, or a fearless fighter. Their understanding of him, or his reputation, was the only sense of an outer man the Hebrew would have recognized, and it was referred to as shem, or name.

[/quote]
I will review those books when I get my hands on them. I already agreed what a nephesh was and that it dies with the body. You're ignoring 2 things though:
1. There isn't a Jew I've met that doesn't believe that a messiah is coming including your cited Sadducees. A lot may disagree that Jesus is that messiah, but God fulfilling His promises are integral to Hebrew belief. If you really feel there is no promised savior that Jewish have been waiting for, I believe you missed some really fundamental principles in your study.
2. blatantly ignoring the entire rabbinical study of the evolution of a soul while focusing on just the nephesh because that suits your goals. You also focus on the sadducee's denial of an afterlife because it supports your argument. It couldn't possibly be that the high social status and money influenced their want for people to focus on the here and now instead of an afterlife?

I've answered and cited instances of Jewish Belief in:
1. a life after this one
2. somewhere for your soul to go after you die
3. You didn't prove agreement among scholars that the reasons the Hebrews had no belief in individual immortality. At your best shot you just claimed they had no interest in it.
4. You claimed that Jews don't believe in a messiah... and that I am ignorant of jewish teachings.

If this is the level you call study and how you make baseless claims, I want nothing to do with it, it seems a little preposterous and disingenuous. I've stated and cited sources external to my personal discussions with rabbi and having services in the synagogue. I haven't appealed to a majority, or made any personal comments (save for the restating of your igtheistic belief) regarding you.

Let me know when the bible study continues.

[Bucky Ball]

The Sadducee of Roman Judah did deny the existent of an afterlife. Ancient Judaism was practical in nature and there was no determined dogma on the afterlife. Much later it was developed and argued over - reference chabad.org . However we are talking about part of the soul that transcends death. The nefesh does go to the grave with the body in ancient belief. However, there is a level to souls in kabbalistic belief. I suggest you reference Yechida. 

I did provide references INCLUDING 3 psalms ... you just ignored my references.
Assertion, no reference. Dismissed. The references I provided PROVE your (still) un-referenced concept that the "nefesh" going to the grave is false. 
The "breath" WAS "LIFE itself". There was no breath when life was absent. There was no "soul" equivalent and no scholar says there was. There was no concept of *individual* immortality, ... and why is that ? Because culturally they were (still) (in the period being discussed ... GENESIS) a tribal society and the concept of "individualism" had not arisen in the West yet. Immortality (pre-Exile) consisted in FAMILY continuation, (the production of MALE heirs). The study of how and why individualism arose is a HUGE field in cultural history .. which you obviously know nothing about. After the Exile, when the traditional family groups and lines were disrupted, and individualism arose, THEN a form of immortality arose ("exaltation") but only for those with hero status. This is discussed by Ehrman in the book I referenced above. 
The ideas (which you are MIS-characterizing) are essential to understanding ALL of the Bible, especially the OT, and you are ignorant of the most basic concepts in Hebrew thought, their relative time periods, the CHANGES and how and why the different concepts arose.

Kabbalistic belief is totally irrelevant to this period. Human thought CHANGES through the ages, and is dependent (totally) on prevailing culture.
Definition of kabbalah :
1 : a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy marked by belief in creation through emanation and a cipher method of interpreting Scripture.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40021203?se...b_contents

No one said the Jews didn't believe in a messiah ... nice try. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianism#Judaism
Some did .. many did not. The concept arose POST-Exile. The role of a messiah was NEVER to "save from sin" The messiah was to re-establish ON EARTH, the kingdom of Israel, and lead that kingdom. Even the followers of Jesus thought THAT definition was what he was about ... (he never once said he was going to "atone for sin") ... "Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1:6
"Rabbinic Judaism and current Orthodox Judaism hold that the messiah will be an anointed one, descended from his father through the Davidic line of King David, who will gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel and usher in an era of peace."
-Wiki
Nothing about salvation. Nothing.

Talking to a rabbi .... LOL
You posted NO REFERENCES to support your assertions. THAT is a part of what "study" is ... sorry if what your traditional "Sunday School" level of study lead to was basically ignorance of the complex nature of Hebrew history. Of course you (as most) "want nothing to do with it" ... it would challenge ALL the basic foundations of the cult that Christians invented when they CHANGED how Jews understood things, (and STILL understand things).

For an understanding of what the Hebrew concept of sin and evil are, read Martin Buber's (Jewish scholar and philosopher) "Good and Evil" (Part II).
It's nothing like what Christians turned it in to, It came from the Babylonian concept of Chaos, (and in that tradition, Buber explains how Jews read the Garden myth, in Genesis, which makes perfect sense.) Many many of the concepts the Judean priests (in Exile) wrote into the first 4 books of the Bible came straight from Babylonian mythology, as did their god Yahweh Sabaoth. which they were exposed to in Exile. They (actually Ezra) then presented the Torah of Moses (as recounted in the Book of Nehemiah) to the people in the fall festival. Before that, the "Bible" was unknown in human history.

[Bucky Ball]

I am here not because of my pride but the pride God has bestowed on me. It is not my pride you see but the Holy Spirit in me. I take tremendous pride in being supported by the direct hand of God not only in my business but in my efforts here to see him every day to have him give me the answers and knowledge I have been given access to. no where I use it or not is sometimes on me, but the support is there. and further more I will be here so long as God supports me. because I have personally ot desire to stand against the tide. I do it because I have been empowered to do so, and nothing you can say or do will change that. Only god shifting me into another role can do this. I will stand this post till I am relieved. 

Please then, go take a shit, and relieve yourself.

---

Lot did Sin, so did Noah, so did Abraham. But we only see a small glimpse of Lot's life. 2 Peter's author makes assumptions that Lot died forgiven because he knew of the forgiveness of Jesus and understood the time before the Law. There is no contradiction. If you see one please be specific. As it says in Romans All have sinned and fall short. If you'd like me to keep it in the OT then:

1 Kings 8:46
"When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them to an enemy, so that they take them away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near;
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

If you'd like it in the same book then:
Genesis 6:12
God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

There was no Lot, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Exodus. They are ALL mythical. 
The very best Israeli archaeologists have concluded (and they have the most to gain by NOT concluding this) ... virtually ALL the OT "patriarchal" literature is myth, and there is no evidence at all for their historicity. None. 

[tackattack]

---

I am here not because of my pride but the pride God has bestowed on me. It is not my pride you see but the Holy Spirit in me. I take tremendous pride in being supported by the direct hand of God not only in my business but in my efforts here to see him every day to have him give me the answers and knowledge I have been given access to. no where I use it or not is sometimes on me, but the support is there. and further more I will be here so long as God supports me. because I have personally ot desire to stand against the tide. I do it because I have been empowered to do so, and nothing you can say or do will change that. Only god shifting me into another role can do this. I will stand this post till I am relieved. 

Please then, go take a shit, and relieve yourself.

---

Lot did Sin, so did Noah, so did Abraham. But we only see a small glimpse of Lot's life. 2 Peter's author makes assumptions that Lot died forgiven because he knew of the forgiveness of Jesus and understood the time before the Law. There is no contradiction. If you see one please be specific. As it says in Romans All have sinned and fall short. If you'd like me to keep it in the OT then:

1 Kings 8:46
"When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them to an enemy, so that they take them away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near;
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

If you'd like it in the same book then:
Genesis 6:12
God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

There was no Lot, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Exodus. They are ALL mythical. 
The very best Israeli archaeologists have concluded (and they have the most to gain by NOT concluding this) ... virtually ALL the OT "patriarchal" literature is myth, and there is no evidence at all for their historicity. None. 

---

OK Bucky you argue for pages upon pages regarding your in depth knowledge of judaism and my lack, complain about references that are easy to find on google, simply to finish your argument with, none of it is real. That's a little devoid of integrity bud.

Under the Premise that this is a Bible study of Genesis,, what exactly are the assumptions here?

I thought we were discussing Jewish belief in an afterlife and a soul. I'm really done going over basic Jewish belief with you so you can watch this very simple description





Summary- The body isn't a living thing, the soul is a living thing. Things that are alive, live forever, things that die die until the messiah resurrects them.

"Life is real! Life is earnest!
  And the grave is not its goal;
“Dust thou art, to dust returnest,"
  Was not spoken of the soul."
-From a Psalm of Life by Longfellow

[GrandizerII]

I will post my thoughts on the account of Lot and his two daughters some hours from now. Shouldn't be long.

Tack, once I do, I'd be interested to know (from a Christian perspective) how you feel about the content of the story and its inclusion in a book that you believe is the written word of God. If you're up for that, of course.

[Bucky Ball]

Under the Premise that this is a Bible study of Genesis,, what exactly are the assumptions here?

I thought we were discussing Jewish belief in an afterlife and a soul. I'm really done going over basic Jewish belief with you so you can watch this very simple description

The Hebrews, in the pre-Apoacalyptic period, did not believe in souls or individual immortality. 
There have been NO academic references provided about THAT PERIOD. I have provided a number of references from recognized scholars of THAT TIME, that demonstrate that.
Unfortunately for you, you are in no position to educate me about anything. I have an advanced degree in a related field.  
I know more about the Bible than any religionist. As Ehrnan says in the beginning chapter of "Jesus Interrupted", if the public actually knew what was taught in the academic centers and mainline seminaries about the Bible, they would be shocked, and what people in the ministry actually learn there, can't be repeated in the churches .. as they'd be tossed out.

YOU were actually arguing about Paul in this thread, thus YOU yourself went off topic.
The question is not what Paul or Peter thought about sin, but what the ANCIENT HEBREWS thought about sin, and where the concepts came from. They did not come from the Bible.
There WAS NO Bible then. The Bible was never the central organizing factor in Hebrew life and culture.

You were referencing Peter "2 Peter's author makes assumptions that Lot died forgiven because he knew of the forgiveness of Jesus and understood the time before the Law. There is no contradiction. If you see one please be specific. As it says in Romans All have sinned and fall short." ... and then you bitch at ME about not staying on topic.

In the topics that are related to Genesis, was the archaic Hebrew notions of "shades". They did not buy into the dualism of souls THEN, and you have provided no references to support that they DID. What they think NOW, is irrelevant to a study of Genesis.

A couple pages, is not pages after pages. Unlike you, I actually know what i'm talking about, and have the references to back it up.
Longfellow is totally irrelevant to the archaic Hebrew concept of "shade"

The ridiculous nonsense about "can a living thing die" ... "no", is SO preposterously obviously WRONG, and ALL OF SCIENCE proves that wrong.
ALL living things die. Period. The end. What Friedman's (obviously wrong) OPINION is NOW, has NOTHING to do with the Archaic Hebrew ideas, THEN.

I'm happy to move on to the next topic. It's pretty obvious what were're dealing with here.