When you prayed did it ever work?

[Drich]

Well, on a broader spectrum, I can say the mission was a success because we got to hand out the packages we assembled for the people we visited. That was in essence priority one. In terms of the "Christian" side of things (i.e. the witnessing etc.), I have to say not one God-related incident happened. To put this another way: we might as well have been representatives of any of these atheist charities and it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the outcome.

So it was a failure because you were not witnessed to any God type magic?

[Ryantology]

I have prayed, and once in awhile, what I wanted actually happened.

I now understand the principles of fortunate circumstance.

[FallentoReason]

Well, on a broader spectrum, I can say the mission was a success because we got to hand out the packages we assembled for the people we visited. That was in essence priority one. In terms of the "Christian" side of things (i.e. the witnessing etc.), I have to say not one God-related incident happened. To put this another way: we might as well have been representatives of any of these atheist charities and it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the outcome.

So it was a failure because you were not witnessed to any God type magic?

They say that 3rd world countries are "aware of the spiritual world" more than in 1st world countries, because you know, we like material things instead. Despite this hunger for the "spiritual world", God was embarrasingly shy to the people of Thailand. It makes saving souls that much harder in a world where innocent, unwary and unfortunate people are being dumped into hell by the truck-loads.

EDIT: seriously... tell your god to f$@*ing lift his game. I'm never one to get angry at the religious, but when it comes to inequality in people's lives because of something that's out of their control, I defend them in whatever way I can. For your Holy book to say that these people will go to hell because they never placed trust in a god that never showed up makes me sick to the stomach.

In saying all this, please only take the argument to heart and not my frustration.

[Cyberman]

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Well, on a broader spectrum, I can say the mission was a success because we got to hand out the packages we assembled for the people we visited. That was in essence priority one. In terms of the "Christian" side of things (i.e. the witnessing etc.), I have to say not one God-related incident happened. To put this another way: we might as well have been representatives of any of these atheist charities and it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to the outcome.

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So it was a failure because you were not witnessed to any God type magic?

James Randi once gave a lecture at Caltech in which he spoke of how you can't, generally, prove a negative through the example of a thought experiment to prove that reindeer can't fly. The video is available on YouTube and I'd post it here if I thought that those of us in most need of seeing it would take the time to do so; however, the relevant portion goes something like this. Suppose you stand at the top of the Empire State Building with a thousand reindeer, which you then push over the edge one by one. As you watch the pile of broken reindeer build up at the base of the building, surrounded by increasingly confused New York cops, you can start to form one of two conclusions. Either these particular reindeer on this particular occasion could not fly, or they chose not to. You haven't proved that it's impossible for reindeer to fly.

Similarly with your apparently insightful observation. What you are proposing is that God, for reasons known only to itself, either cannot or chooses not to display "God type magic" in response to experiments designed specifically to test for it. We are perfectly entitled to form our own conclusions from such reasoning, for want of a better word.

[ronedee]

Well....it looks pretty even in relation to believers and un-believers having prayers answered, and not!

So, I guess we can ultimately surmise that prayers answered, or not.... have absolutely NOTHING to do with ones belief or non-belief in God.

To use an old quote (that would have avoided this thread for anything other than entertainment...and possibly the whole forum):

"To the believer no explaination is necessary. To the unbeliever no explanation is possible."

[LastPoet]

Wrong mother teresa, To the unbeliever, fairy tales explain nothing.

[Cyberman]

How about: to the believer, any explanation is good enough. To the unbeliever, any explanation may be considered.

[Drich]

So it was a failure because you were not witnessed to any God type magic?

They say that 3rd world countries are "aware of the spiritual world" more than in 1st world countries, because you know, we like material things instead.

by what measure? The miracle you were looking to do and could not? By the things that you have and they do not? I would contend that you do not have enough information to know what God has or has not done for the people of Thailand. Just because you were made aware of a single need and you see/feel guilt for all that you have, does not make God deficient, just because you could not perform the miracle you wanted to produce.

Not every worker is slated for the harvest. (Not everyone get to reap or see the benefits of the whole seasons work) Some have to till or break the ground, others broadcast seed, others still nourish and maintain the crop. Just because you were not sent to harvest in the way you wanted to does not mean God is leaving the fields of Thailand to fend for themselves.

Despite this hunger for the "spiritual world", God was embarrassingly shy to the people of Thailand. It makes saving souls that much harder in a world where innocent, unwary and unfortunate people are being dumped into hell by the truck-loads.

This is what kills me. You see an obvious need, and I am sure you could see some needs you could have filled on your own or as a group without the need for a magic miracle. The question is did you? Or did you simply let the truck loads of hell bound people roll past you as you waited/demanded that God sell you the spiritual gift you went to Thailand to receive?

EDIT: seriously... Tell your god to f$@*ing lift his game.

God's "game" can only be as good as the players who commit themselves to play it.

I'm never one to get angry at the religious, but when it comes to inequality in people's lives because of something that's out of their control, I defend them in whatever way I can. For your Holy book to say that these people will go to hell because they never placed trust in a god that never showed up makes me sick to the stomach.

But, you said yourself. God's representatives did show up, they just pouted when they got their because he was not taken back enough by their effort, to grant them with the most coveted Spiritual gift in their brand of Christianity.

In saying all this, please only take the argument to heart and not my frustration.

I see both. I see a want to care for others,(which is commendable) and I see the need to do it on your terms alone.(which is damnable)

Like it or not as a Christian 'we' are slaves. Slaves do not get to pick and choose how they serve. We serve by being faithful to what we have been given, and to the circumstances we have been placed. Honestly ask yourself if you were serving as a diligent slave or if you were holding out to be heralded in with a very specific gift.

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I have prayed, and once in awhile, what I wanted actually happened.

I now understand the principles of fortunate circumstance.

If this is the case know you did not pray. You petitioned God. Their is a difference between prayer and petition.

Prayer is to change your will/what you want to match that of What God has in store for you. As such Prayer will ALWAYS be answered.

Petition is to ask God to grant a wish. Petitioning God is not a sin, but it does not meet the requirement of prayer either.

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[quote='Drich' pid='358815' dateline='1352130945']

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So it was a failure because you were not witnessed to any God type magic?

James Randi once gave a lecture at Caltech in which he spoke of how you can't, generally, prove a negative through the example of a thought experiment to prove that reindeer can't fly. The video is available on YouTube and I'd post it here if I thought that those of us in most need of seeing it would take the time to do so; however, the relevant portion goes something like this. Suppose you stand at the top of the Empire State Building with a thousand reindeer, which you then push over the edge one by one. As you watch the pile of broken reindeer build up at the base of the building, surrounded by increasingly confused New York cops, you can start to form one of two conclusions. Either these particular reindeer on this particular occasion could not fly, or they chose not to. You haven't proved that it's impossible for reindeer to fly.

Similarly with your apparently insightful observation. What you are proposing is that God, for reasons known only to itself, either cannot or chooses not to display "God type magic" in response to experiments designed specifically to test for it. We are perfectly entitled to form our own conclusions from such reasoning, for want of a better word.

The reason this argument fails or does not apply to this topic, is because Miraculous healing do indeed happen, and are documented. In both instances for me the doctors told me to Thank God for the miracle, because their was nothing medically that could explain what had happened.

Unfortunately because these occurrence can not be reproduced on demand the medical community at large dismiss these events simply because they have no way of verifying the incident. I was told by my doctor that the medical community is driven on what can be bottled or sold as a therapy. It has no interest in promoting something redirects money or faith from that system. Even holistic medicines are shunned because by at large these remedies can not be regulated to the same degree 'medicine' is regulated.

[Cyberman]

The reason this argument fails or does not apply to this topic, is because Miraculous healing do indeed happen, and are documented. In both instances for me the doctors told me to Thank God for the miracle, because their was nothing medically that could explain what had happened.

Saying there is documentation and providing the documentation are not even remotely the same thing. Tacking on a personal anecdote does nothing. Even if the story happened as you relate, all it shows is that the doctors in question are as deluded as you are.

Unfortunately because these occurrence can not be reproduced on demand the medical community at large dismiss these events simply because they have no way of verifying the incident. I was told by my doctor that the medical community is driven on what can be bottled or sold as a therapy. It has no interest in promoting something redirects money or faith from that system. Even holistic medicines are shunned because by at large these remedies can not be regulated to the same degree 'medicine' is regulated.

Congratulations, you just gave birth to a deliberately unfalsifiable position, no different to the invisible cheese bicycles on the Moon. They too can be defined to be just out of detection range.

Plus, holistic medicines are not shunned because they can't be regulated (what the hell is 'medicine' anyway?). Holistic simply means whole body, indicating that the whole person is treated as a system rather than targetting the specific symptoms. Herbal remedies and nutritional supplements may indeed be beneficial in some limited way, or at least not too harmful. They mustn't be confused with snake-oil scams such as homeopathy and similar; these are not shunned because of regulation but because they don't bloody work and have been known to be harmful, not least because they have prevented people from seeking real treatment.

However, we can test this stuff. Next time you have a splitting headache, perhaps from trying to cram too many directly contradictory positions into your head at once, instead of taking an analgesic, try praying or drinking water instead. Anything else would make you a hypocrite.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, lookey here Stimbo, magic isn't interested in curing headaches or the common cold, isn't it enough that it takes the time to provide some examples so that the gullible might point to them? Demanding motherfucking lot aren't we, insisting that results be demonstrable, repeatable, attributable? Magic works when it fucking feels like it, not when we need it..cmon....