Universe from Nothing?

[Jesus is Lord]

So what is the quantum foam doing here?

See Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. It can't not be there.

----------------

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're talking about the invisible principles upholding reality - in this case, you are invoking "Heisnberg's Uncertainty Principle." (Someone else might invoke some other theoretical construct.) You are essentially declaring that there is an invisible operating system which gives rise to that which (eventually) becomes visible, measurable, palpable.

Now - why should there be this principle? Why should there be this invisible superstructure underwriting reality?

What's Heisenberg doing there?

If you back up far enough, no matter what view of the universe you subscribe to, you end up with an invisible, characteristically mathematical superstructure upholding the universe.

[Lemonvariable72]

Agreed.

Why are you acting so proud? You're still completely unjustified in believing a god was before it until you can provide a single iota of evidence for such.

And no amount of self assured emoticons will change that.

I'll admit that I'm okay with the idea of a god, and the god of deism is something that could be quite plausible. But abrahamic god is a preposterous proposition, as in the bible it doesn't even know a 4th grader's level of science, hell it seem to think stars are little points in the sky and that plants can live without the sun.

[Whateverist]

See Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. It can't not be there.

----------------

Now - why should there be this principle? Why should there be this invisible superstructure underwriting reality?

Looks like a variant of "why is there something instead of nothing at all?"

Damned if I know. One possible hypothesis is that goddidit. If there was something running around creating cosmos, then surely it could account for the universe alright. Of course, if you think it remarkable that anything should exist instead of nothing, then it must really blow your mind to imagine why a god should exist instead of nothing at all. Have you found any evidence for thinking God is an intermediary between nothing and something? Certainly I've never heard any. As an explanation, God would seem to strain credibility even more than everything from we just don't know what.

[Jesus is Lord]

"It is a remarkable fact that very few fundamental laws
are required to describe the enormous
range of physical phenomena
that take place throughout the universe.
The study of these fundamental laws
is at the heart of Physics.
The laws are found to have a mathematical structure;..."


Frank Firk, Professor Emeritus of Physics, Yale,
introduction to Essential Physics



There is an invisible superstructure which upholds the universe.
The physical interactions we see are controlled by invisible.


The invisible idea of the universe is first.

[Esquilax]

There is an invisible superstructure which upholds the universe.
The physical interactions we see are controlled by invisible.


The invisible idea of the universe is first.

So how does that get you to god, or even design?

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

See Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle. It can't not be there.

----------------

Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're talking about the invisible principles upholding reality - in this case, you are invoking "Heisnberg's Uncertainty Principle." (Someone else might invoke some other theoretical construct.) You are essentially declaring that there is an invisible operating system which gives rise to that which (eventually) becomes visible, measurable, palpable.

Now - why should there be this principle? Why should there be this invisible superstructure underwriting reality?

What's Heisenberg doing there?

If you back up far enough, no matter what view of the universe you subscribe to, you end up with an invisible, characteristically mathematical superstructure upholding the universe.

Or alternatively, the mathematical superstructure is a human interpretation of the properties of the universe rather than a set of transcendent 'laws' to which the universe adheres.

[MindForgedManacle]

"It is a remarkable fact that very few fundamental laws
are required to describe the enormous
range of physical phenomena
that take place throughout the universe.
The study of these fundamental laws
is at the heart of Physics.
The laws are found to have a mathematical structure;..."


Frank Firk, Professor Emeritus of Physics, Yale,
introduction to Essential Physics



There is an invisible superstructure which upholds the universe.
The physical interactions we see are controlled by invisible.


The invisible idea of the universe is first.

...And the underlined bit shows that you're quote-mining him. Again, the usual metaphysical view of this isn't that there are these governing entities over the behavior in the universe. As I've said to you repeatedly, that's backwards. It's like thinking of "selective pressures" in evolutionary biology as things unto themselves,

[Cinjin]

wow, there's a LOT of crazy goin on in this thread.

[The Valkyrie]

The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.

Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.

Something from nothing is a religious concept, not necessarily a scientific one. After all, according to your mythology, your god *poofed* the universe into existence out of nothing.

And, by definition, your deity also came from nothing. And if, as you're likely to claim, your deity has always existed, why can't the same be true for the universe?

As to the rest, that's just claims with absolutely no scientific merit.

[Lion IRC]

...And, by definition, your deity also came from nothing.

Actually, if you are talking about 'definition' the God of the bible did not "come from" anywhere or anything or anyone. If He had, then biblical theists would instead, be worshipping an even Higher Being who actually WAS all-powerful and ever-living.