The Baha'i Faith

[vodkafan]

Zan, you didn't respond to my point.

[zanOTK]

Zan, you didn't respond to my point.

My apologies.

I googled it and read up. Although less harmful than some religions , it still ostracises gay people in practice so that kind of negates it's aim of celebrating diversity of humans. And you have still got a God in there.

I'm going to work backward here.
It makes little sense to hold the fact that we believe in God against us, especially since we're not trying to push that belief on anyone else. Those that are unable to believe in a God, well, they usually just don't become Baha'i.
The Baha'i stance on homosexuality is something that causes a problem for many people. It did for me at one point, since I am bisexual. But I eventually accepted it. As a bisexual man, I don't feel ostracized. A homosexual man in our community doesn't appear to feel ostracized either (I believe he is actually on the Local Spiritual Assembly). Neither does a young lesbian girl that just recently joined us. You see, when somebody becomes Baha'i they make the choice that this is more important, and they know that they will have to make hard decisions because of their conversion. It's worth it though.
Again, though, this is one of those things that if it is a huge problem for someone, they probably just won't become Baha'i. And that's just fine.

[Ksa]

What's the point to make up a religion if it is not truth? Is it like wearing a brand on your underwear or sumtn?

[zanOTK]

What's the point to make up a religion if it is not truth? Is it like wearing a brand on your underwear or sumtn?

Is that directed at me? If so, I assure you I didn't make up the Baha'i Faith. It's quite real, and was founded in the 1800s (I don't look THAT old, do I?).

As for whether or not its true: obviously, if somebody follows a religion, they probably believe it is true.

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Thought somebody might enjoy this article:
How the Baha'i Faith became South Carolina's second-largest religion

[Ksa]

What's the point to make up a religion if it is not truth? Is it like wearing a brand on your underwear or sumtn?

Is that directed at me? If so, I assure you I didn't make up the Baha'i Faith. It's quite real, and was founded in the 1800s (I don't look THAT old, do I?).

As for whether or not its true: obviously, if somebody follows a religion, they probably believe it is true.

---

Thought somebody might enjoy this article:
How the Baha'i Faith became South Carolina's second-largest religion

If you believe that La Ilaha Ilallah Mohammad Rasoul Allah, that there is no God but Allah and that prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger, I'm not sure what's not clear to you about the word final? They even added 2 words, "last" and "final" to make sure you won't get it wrong.

Final means Muhammad was the last one. Final does not mean there's others after him also. If you believe others came after him, you don't truly believe that Muhammad was a messenger. So you're like Jehovah witness, claiming Jesus cried on the cross "jehova, Jehova, lamassa bahtani" despite what the scriptures say he said. So why would I listen to you? You can just say fuck-all.

[zanOTK]

Is that directed at me? If so, I assure you I didn't make up the Baha'i Faith. It's quite real, and was founded in the 1800s (I don't look THAT old, do I?).

As for whether or not its true: obviously, if somebody follows a religion, they probably believe it is true.

---

Thought somebody might enjoy this article:
How the Baha'i Faith became South Carolina's second-largest religion

If you believe that La Ilaha Ilallah Mohammad Rasoul Allah, that there is no God but Allah and that prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger, I'm not sure what's not clear to you about the word final? They even added 2 words, "last" and "final" to make sure you won't get it wrong.

Final means Muhammad was the last one. Final does not mean there's others after him also. If you believe others came after him, you don't truly believe that Muhammad was a messenger. So you're like Jehovah witness, claiming Jesus cried on the cross "jehova, Jehova, lamassa bahtani" despite what the scriptures say he said. So why would I listen to you? You can just say fuck-all.

Hmm. I see where you might have an issue. See, the Arabic you posted doesn't say "last" or "final." It just says "There is no god but God, and Muhammad a Messenger of God." And of course, you may be confusing the fact that some Muslims have a longer Shahada. The one you quoted was the Sunni Shahada, while Shias add "wa aliyun waliyyullah", "and Ali is the friend of God." Neither of these, however, says "last", or "final."

So, either you were misinformed, or you are intentionally twisting facts to support your own position. Which makes little sense, in my eyes, since I was not challenging you in the first place. I created this thread to in order to continue a conversation with Pickup_shonuff, not to attempt to convince anybody of my beliefs. Your actions, attacking an individual who has made no attempt to alter your opinion, show a lack of maturity. Go home. Come back when you're able to behave like an adult.

[The Grand Nudger]

Does the concept of a creator god to which you are bound in servitude; by purpose, ever strike you as having the ability to erode some of the other things you hold dear about the faith? From the standpoint of human dignity and rights, is it really prudent to claim that we are bound in servitude to anything at all (perhaps even more precariously so, to a god), for example?

Or, to put it another way, can you tell me that I -was not- created to be a servant and remain within the scope of the faiths position on the matter?

[zanOTK]

Does the concept of a creator god to which you are bound in servitude; by purpose, ever strike you as having the ability to erode some of the other things you hold dear about the faith? From the standpoint of human dignity and rights, is it really prudent to claim that we are bound in servitude to anything at all (perhaps even more precariously so, to a god), for example?

Or, to put it another way, can you tell me that I -was not- created to be a servant and remain within the scope of the faiths position on the matter?

I cannot tell you that you were not "created" (born. I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you weren't formed by God directly) to be a servant of God. To be honest, I don't see your point. As a servant of God, I am a servant of man. That's what Baha'is are told, the highest form of worship is service to our fellow man. And, according to the Faith, we were created to "know and worship" God. Since service to our fellow man is the highest form of worship, then we were created to serve our fellow man. I see no issue here.

[The Grand Nudger]

I cannot tell you that you were not "created" (born. I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you weren't formed by God directly) to be a servant of God. To be honest, I don't see your point. As a servant of God, I am a servant of man. That's what Baha'is are told, the highest form of worship is service to our fellow man. And, according to the Faith, we were created to "know and worship" God. Since service to our fellow man is the highest form of worship, then we were created to serve our fellow man. I see no issue here.

The issue is one of principle...because principle has a way of shaping our actions and what we will accept in our lives as tolerable. Does it not? The service to your fellow man, to me, seems to be a flowery phrase hiding an ugly truth. You are serving god, period (man is just an intermediary). I'm fine with that, but to imply or directly state that I (or any other) was created to be a servant legitimizes the notion that there is such a thing as a "born servant". That we have a place. That our purpose has been decided by another and that this purpose is servitude to that other. That doesn't strike you as a possible issue? Are you serving man legitimizing the masters rights over the human chattel?

[zanOTK]

I cannot tell you that you were not "created" (born. I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you weren't formed by God directly) to be a servant of God. To be honest, I don't see your point. As a servant of God, I am a servant of man. That's what Baha'is are told, the highest form of worship is service to our fellow man. And, according to the Faith, we were created to "know and worship" God. Since service to our fellow man is the highest form of worship, then we were created to serve our fellow man. I see no issue here.

The issue is one of principle...because principle has a way of shaping our actions and what we will accept in our lives as tolerable. Does it not? The service to your fellow man, to me, seems to be a flowery phrase hiding an ugly truth. You are serving god, period (man is just an intermediary). I'm fine with that, but to imply or directly state that I (or any other) was created to be a servant legitimizes the notion that there is such a thing as a "born servant". That we have a place. That our purpose has been decided by another and that this purpose is servitude to that other. That doesn't strike you as a possible issue? Are you serving man legitimizing the masters rights over the human chattel?

I do not see it that way. Because, unlike the masters you compare Him too, God isn't sending anyone to chase after the servants that say something along the lines of "fuck Him" and leave, nor is He punishing the ones that come back afterwards. Simply put, it doesn't matter what you were born to do. Because you don't have to do it.

Anyway, did you read my opening post? This thread isn't here to try to convert anyone or convince anyone that I'm right. It was for a conversation with Pickup_shonuff, in order to answer some questions he had. I happily answered the questions of a few others along the way, but I don't appreciate people issuing me challenges or acting like I've issued a challenge when I haven't done anything of the sort. Continue to disbelieve as you wish, and don't worry about what I believe.