Women. Religion’s longestrunning victims.

[rexbeccarox]

Not to be nit-picky, but I had a male leader for a time when I was a Girl Scout.

[Tobie]

How about

I Corinthians 11:3: But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I Corinthians 11:8-9: For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Ephesians 5:22-24: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

The last one is particularly damning.

in verse 8 men are not allowed to express anger or quarrel

Great cherrypicking - it also says that women have to do this also.

[Losty]

Your telling Christians to stop being christian at an atheist forum. I think you'll have a better audience at a christian forum. Otherwise, your preaching to the choir.

I wish this was the choir you seem to think but I cannot agree from what I see elsewhere.

I am aware of where I am but you guys brought up an older O.P. on women so I thought I would post one that I have posted as you suggest.

Consider it a small effort on my part to show how to be better apologists for women's rights to equality that is presently being denied women by a predominantly male Christian majority.

Regards
DL

I have already apologized for necroposting in your thread (though, admittedly, not specifically to you). So, I'm sorry I necroposted in your thread. It was only my intention to point out that Polaris said something I completely agreed with and I was pleasantly surprised by that.

Men and women should be equal. Always. But I feel like asking Christians to give women equality is asking them to turn against their religion. That's fine with me, but surprising coming from you.

Not all Christians believe what the Bible says. The subjugation of women to men has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is a position of faith, not actions.

Not to argue but , --- he shall rule over you, is a position of action and not faith.

I personally believe that very few believers actually believe. They just follow tradition and culture and our Western culture has always discriminated against women and gays.

We are getting better but still have a long way to go.

Regards
DL

Do you actually believe?

[Bad Wolf]

In verse 8 men are not allowed to express anger or quarrel, does this mean that they are 2nd class citizens to women in the Bible?

Does this verse state that men aren't allowed to quarrel with women? No it doesn't, it applies to both sexes. Whereas this one specifically talks about what a woman can do in relation to men.

Having rules for different genders does not demonstrate a view that one is inferior to the other.

In this case it does.

No, that’s only within the Church, and Paul gives the reason for it, women are more easily deceived in spiritual matters than men are.

Right.....and who says this exactly? Has it been demonstrated? Observed? Documented? It isn't the bible perchance? How convenient, women shouldn't talk in church because they are more easily decieved in spiritual matters. We know this is true because it's in the bible and the bible says that everything in the bible is true.

Yes, and the same passage says that men will have to work the earth in hard labor for minimal food.

Equality is not a tally of difficult things that each sex has to do. And once again, this verse doesn't talk about how men must submit to women and do all the hard work.

[BlackMason]

Then there's Genesis 3:16, where god says that a woman's husband will rule over her.

That's just a metaphor!

A metaphor? With what consequence? What is it's purpose?

---

I guess it depends on what your definition of second class citizen is. For me, a second class citizen is someone who is SYSTEMATICALLY discriminated against. They are seen as inferior to their deemed superiors. They do not share the same opportunities socially and economically.

It has been said that having different rules for different genders is not sufficient for labelling a structure as relegating some to second class citizen status. I agree. However, my point of departure is when one says this is not present in the bible. Please notice the all caps and bold above. It is necessary in my view that there be an element of intent. This is what systematically means in the above. The bible intends for women to be less than men.

There are scriptures that say that the head of the woman is the man. It also goes on to say that the head of the man is Christ. Claiming that this is an equal imposition for men is plain stupid. The consequences are vastly different.

[Esquilax]

Really!

Women being treated as property (being spoils of war for example) doesn't make them 2nd class citizens. Women have to be silent in church, while men don't have to be.

You really can't see it?!

Here's a little tip for dealing with Stat: he will never see it. Because it doesn't literally say, in black and white, the words "women should be second class citizens," he will never see it. Because the bible only meticulously constructs its rules in such a way that men are given disproportionate power in comparison to, and over, women because of their gender, without outright stating that this is the case, he will never ever stop fighting against that fact.

The bible literally is sexist, but because it does not literally say the specific sexist thing that you have stated, this argument will never end, and Stat will continue to pretend that he doesn't see what the words in the book are clearly stating.

[Greatest I am]

Christianity makes women 2nd class citizens.

How?....

This clip showed how hard it was for the Suffragettes to fight the influence of religions that discriminate without a just cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII...re=related

Regards
DL

---

By saying they should be in their book.

Where does the Bible say that women should be 2nd class citizens?

He shall rule over you ----- is God's curse on women that men perpetuate.

That say to women that they will never rule and that makes them second class citizens.

Regards
DL

---

Then there's Genesis 3:16, where god says that a woman's husband will rule over her.

That's just a metaphor!

Yes. To you and I. But that metaphor has been used to bludgeon women into second class citizens forever by men who are using religion against their own women.

Shame on your ilk.

Regards
DL

---

Not to be nit-picky, but I had a male leader for a time when I was a Girl Scout.

Oppressed women will be happy to hear that at least one man has tried to elevate Girl Scouts.

Do the Girl Scouts get taught to sit at the back of the bus and church where they belong?

According to Christianity that is.

Regards
DL

---

I wish this was the choir you seem to think but I cannot agree from what I see elsewhere.

I am aware of where I am but you guys brought up an older O.P. on women so I thought I would post one that I have posted as you suggest.

Consider it a small effort on my part to show how to be better apologists for women's rights to equality that is presently being denied women by a predominantly male Christian majority.

Regards
DL

I have already apologized for necroposting in your thread (though, admittedly, not specifically to you). So, I'm sorry I necroposted in your thread. It was only my intention to point out that Polaris said something I completely agreed with and I was pleasantly surprised by that.

Men and women should be equal. Always. But I feel like asking Christians to give women equality is asking them to turn against their religion. That's fine with me, but surprising coming from you.

Not to argue but , --- he shall rule over you, is a position of action and not faith.

I personally believe that very few believers actually believe. They just follow tradition and culture and our Western culture has always discriminated against women and gays.

We are getting better but still have a long way to go.

Regards
DL

Do you actually believe?

Not in any supernatural God.

Only man is fit to be his own God. That is normal Gnostic Christian fare and that statement is irrefutable even if it is biblical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesf...r_embedded

Regards
DL

[Statler Waldorf]

Not to be nit-picky, but I had a male leader for a time when I was a Girl Scout.

That must be a new rule; they used to not allow males to be leaders. You get my point though. The Girl Scouts never viewed men as 2nd class citizens.

The last one is particularly damning.

How? This is all just non-sequiturs. Players must submit to their coaches, does this mean they are 2nd class citizens? Nope. Having a household hierarchy does not prove that women are 2nd class citizens or devalued in scripture. Children must submit to their parents, and yet they are greatly valued by scripture.

Great cherrypicking - it also says that women have to do this also.

Where? The passage moves from men’s anger and quarreling to how women dress.

Does this verse state that men aren't allowed to quarrel with women? No it doesn't, it applies to both sexes. Whereas this one specifically talks about what a woman can do in relation to men.

No, verse 8 specifically says “men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling”. Following your logic the Bible teaches that men are 2nd class citizens since it has rules that only apply to men and not women. Given my argument, this rule is in place because men are more outwardly expressive with their anger and prone to quarrel; while the church authority rule is in place because women are more easily deceived in the spiritual realm. I see no problem with either rule because gender differences are a reality.

In this case it does.

Asserting that is the case does not make it so. A police officer has authority over me in certain areas, however that does not prove that our legal system views me as a 2nd class citizen.

Right.....and who says this exactly? Has it been demonstrated? Observed? Documented? It isn't the bible perchance? How convenient, women shouldn't talk in church because they are more easily deceived [sic] in spiritual matters. We know this is true because it's in the bible and the bible says that everything in the bible is true.

Your claim was that the Bible had such rules because it viewed women as 2nd class citizens; I was refuting that claim by pointing out the actual reason why the Bible has such rules. Scripture is the final authority on spiritual matters; I find it amusing that you seem to think Christians are going to use something other than God’s own revelation as an authoritative source of information regarding the spiritual realm.

Equality is not a tally of difficult things that each sex has to do. And once again, this verse doesn't talk about how men must submit to women and do all the hard work.

Nor does equality require identical roles in life. The verse never says women ought to be ruled over by men, it simply says that they are going to be, and they have been throughout history; just as men have had to work the Earth for food throughout history.

---

I guess it depends on what your definition of second class citizen is. For me, a second class citizen is someone who is SYSTEMATICALLY discriminated against. They are seen as inferior to their deemed superiors. They do not share the same opportunities socially and economically.

It has been said that having different rules for different genders is not sufficient for labelling a structure as relegating some to second class citizen status. I agree. However, my point of departure is when one says this is not present in the bible. Please notice the all caps and bold above. It is necessary in my view that there be an element of intent. This is what systematically means in the above. The bible intends for women to be less than men.

There are scriptures that say that the head of the woman is the man. It also goes on to say that the head of the man is Christ. Claiming that this is an equal imposition for men is plain stupid. The consequences are vastly different.

---

Interesting post, but allow me to ask you something. Are children less human or valuable than their parents because they must submit to them? I do not believe so at all, and I do not know many parents who would disagree with me.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”- Galatians 3:28 (ESV)

That settles the entire debate right there, as far as God is concerned, there is no value difference between males and females; a remarkable verse for a book of antiquity supposedly just written by misogynistic men.

Here's a little tip for dealing with Stat: he will never see it. Because it doesn't literally say, in black and white, the words "women should be second class citizens," he will never see it. Because the bible only meticulously constructs its rules in such a way that men are given disproportionate power in comparison to, and over, women because of their gender, without outright stating that this is the case, he will never ever stop fighting against that fact.

The bible literally is sexist, but because it does not literally say the specific sexist thing that you have stated, this argument will never end, and Stat will continue to pretend that he doesn't see what the words in the book are clearly stating.

Something cannot be literally sexist without literally teaching sexism. For some reason, I find myself constantly bearing the burden of forcing you guys to actually support what you assert to be the case. It gets old, but I guess it’s a good job for me. So far, all that has been supported is the notion that the Bible has different roles for each gender, and has a hierarchy for the church and the household. This however does not support the assertion that the Bible teaches that anyone is a 2nd class citizen or somehow devalued in the eyes of God. For that, I am still waiting for the support.

This clip showed how hard it was for the Suffragettes to fight the influence of religions that discriminate without a just cause.

What people do with the Bible is irrelevant in regards to what the Bible actually teaches. Since you are making claims concerning the latter let’s stick with that.

He shall rule over you ----- is God's curse on women that men perpetuate.

Yes, and we all shall die too because of the curse.

That say to women that they will never rule and that makes them second class citizens.

No it does not, are children 2nd class citizens? Women rule over them in the household.

Yes. To you and I. But that metaphor has been used to bludgeon women into second class citizens forever by men who are using religion against their own women.

Do women allow men to do this or are they incapable of overcoming it?

Do the Girl Scouts get taught to sit at the back of the bus and church where they belong?

Women are allowed to sit wherever they like in church. You should actually attend a church sometime.

[Bad Wolf]

No, verse 8 specifically says “men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling”. Following your logic the Bible teaches that men are 2nd class citizens since it has rules that only apply to men and not women. Given my argument, this rule is in place because men are more outwardly expressive with their anger and prone to quarrel; while the church authority rule is in place because women are more easily deceived in the spiritual realm. I see no problem with either rule because gender differences are a reality.

You rather spectacularly missed the point again. The verse says that women should answer to men. That is the problem. What jobs they do is irrelevant. Stop trying to make it out to be that. That is not equality, one sex being ruled by another.

Asserting that is the case does not make it so.

I know, and asserting what you are saying doesn't make it so either.

A police officer has authority over me in certain areas, however that does not prove that our legal system views me as a 2nd class citizen.

If the police officer had power over you because you were a man, then yes, you would be a second class citizen.

Right.....and who says this exactly? Has it been demonstrated? Observed? Documented? It isn't the bible perchance? How convenient, women shouldn't talk in church because they are more easily deceived [sic] in spiritual matters. We know this is true because it's in the bible and the bible says that everything in the bible is true.

Your claim was that the Bible had such rules because it viewed women as 2nd class citizens; I was refuting that claim by pointing out the actual reason why the Bible has such rules. Scripture is the final authority on spiritual matters; I find it amusing that you seem to think Christians are going to use something other than God’s own revelation as an authoritative source of information regarding the spiritual realm.

And I was trying to make you see your how ridiculous that is. Don't you ever wonder why the bible seems to hold the same values as yourself?

Nor does equality require identical roles in life. The verse never says women ought to be ruled over by men, it simply says that they are going to be, and they have been throughout history;

Riiiiiiiiight. Rationalise all you want, just know that your wrong.

just as men have had to work the Earth for food throughout history.

Were the men forced to work the earth for the women? Would they be punished by the women if they didn't?

Something cannot be literally sexist without literally teaching sexism. For some reason, I find myself constantly bearing the burden of forcing you guys to actually support what you assert to be the case. It gets old, but I guess it’s a good job for me. So far, all that has been supported is the notion that the Bible has different roles for each gender, and has a hierarchy for the church and the household. This however does not support the assertion that the Bible teaches that anyone is a 2nd class citizen or somehow devalued in the eyes of God. For that, I am still waiting for the support.

The bible literally says that you can sell your daughter as a sex slave. What is that if not a second class citizen?

Don't worry, I'll wait for you to rationalise your way out of it.

[rexbeccarox]

Not to be nit-picky, but I had a male leader for a time when I was a Girl Scout.

That must be a new rule; they used to not allow males to be leaders. You get my point though. The Girl Scouts never viewed men as 2nd class citizens.

It's not a "rule". There's simply nothing in their guidelines about what gender can lead a troop. Also, I'm 37. It's not like I was a Girl Scout yesterday.