The End of the World

[dyresand]

here we go fuck earth god and the devil can fight over it. we have enough technology to live in space so fuck it.
we they settle there difference we come back and kick whose ever ass that wins. think about we have enough military grade
explosives to destroy the world that should be more than enough and even over kill on something we think or the bible says who is
nearly invincible. i mean come on we don't use swords and shields anymore we have assault rifles and rocket launchers.

[Mister Agenda]

[

Okay, but lurkers sound like they are somewhat less than those who participate.

I consider them part of the audience.

No, just telling you what the scriptures say, if you would at least read and study them you wouldn't have to ask so many simple questions.

I have read and studed them. I read the Bible twice cover-to-cover, some parts more than I can number. But why is it my job to know what scriptures you are thinking of when you make claims?

We'll see one day who sought the truth from scripture no matter what they say, to sugar coat the truth does no one justice.

I doubt we'll ever know, but if we do, I think it will be better to have erred on the side of sugar-coating than mud-dipping.

[Mister Agenda]

That's not an assurance. Once a worm is eaten and pooped out he would have to be considered a bad worm for not learning to survive.

Sigh. So is it your position that reincarnation is worse than hell because you might wind up a worm?

I did not say that and you know that, we've been through this before, your argument is boiling down to nothing more than the same old atheist cliches.

Your replies are the same old cliched Christianist evasions.

That's why we call him God, we do not have to describe who He is, it goes without saying, it is a given that He is perfect, without flaw.

That is a claim. Claims don't go without saying...proclaiming they do is an admission that you can't support them. Apparently all you've got to support the notion that God is perfect is handwaving. Which is a good summary of what you've got to support the notion that God exists, too.

More atheist cliche, I'm beginning to get bored with this.

I think this is the most substantive reply you've yet made, ever. It sums up what you have to contribute to this community beautifully.

Yes it is, yet Christ said, people would and I find it fits some here, if you can't see that you need to open your eyes.

You clearly really want me to care enough about you to hate you. Sorry to disappoint. You're probably an okay chap when you're being real instead of a salesman for Jesus.

You do not need to pity me I have chosen what I want and am satisfied with my decision.

You're whining about being hated and insist that I hate you even when I've clearly said I don't, which is essentially calling me a liar (again). I don't pity you because I need to, I pity you because your condition compels it. I don't decide to feel pity, I just do. If you don't want me to pity you, stop acting so pitiful. I have a soft heart, I don't like to see you this way, man. I want to feel like I'm having a grown up conversation with an adult, not like I'm kicking a puppy.

You should give specifics, how am I suppose to defend what you consider despicable, am I to guess and give you another opportunity to ridicule me. How is it you see my compassion hobbled, by what means.

If I argued the way you do, this is the point where I would claim I've explained all clearly or in some other post somewhere. It's rich that YOU want specifics when dishing out vague generalities when challenged is your specialty.

Between a heroic and compassionate Hindu and Dahmer going to hell, it's your position that the Hindu is going to hell and that it would be unfair for her not to go to the hell, where she would spoil Dahmer's heaven-enjoyment experience. It's your opinion that God owes it to Dahmer to keep the Hindu out, because Dahmer signed onto the deal with the understanding that he wouldn't have to put up with lousy sinners in heaven.

If you don't 'get' why I consider this despicable, you lack the capacity to evaluate moral considerations. Which is the sum of my point.

I'm sure God has disappointments with me, I'm not perfect as you seem to think you are, that's called self righteousness and holds no water with God.

You poor thing! Go ahead and keep telling yourself that I'm the self-righteous one if that's what you need to believe.

So I would rather have God upset with me than to have Him to give up on me. I sir will live in an eternal paradise, mercy is what I received when I accepted Christ as my savior, I have no worries, it seems though you might, at least your language hints to a nervousness.

Yet another attempt to deflect from the weakness of your position by trying to shift the subject to the emotional state you imagine I'm in from the 'hints' in my language. I don't have enough eyes to roll at this.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father,who is in heaven.'

No, I know He exists, sorry you have a problem with that, the truth is what it is and I know.

Well, you can't argue with 'logic' like that, folks!

Care to prove that info, or is this another one of those atheist cliches that holds no water with me.

Is it your opinion that Yoruban witch doctors don't believe in Chango, that there are no Hindus within driving distance of where you live, or are you just being mealy-mouthed and obtuse?

And I think it would be hard to top whining about cliches repeatedly and pretending that calling something a cliche is some kind of adequate response to a point someone makes as an example of being too cliched.

I know there dreams are just that, why, because I know God is real with no doubts and, He's said there is no other gods that exist.

In other words, someone wrote down that he said that, and you believe that person was telling the truth because it's in the Biblical canon agreed upon by the Council of Nicea and you believe everything the Council of Nicea could get a majority vote on including was authored indirectly by God through human proxies. And you also believe that believing that constitutes knowledge.

The one God has supplied is more than sufficient.

Then have you considered limiting your claims to on what you can actually cite scripture?

You have some kind of misguided notion to how salvation is obtained, could be if others here have the same idea,

I'm limiting myself to what you say, since I've no idea what you think otherwise.

It's why they left the church.

You're a mind reader now? No generalization too broad for you, eh?

The sacrifice was made for all people, what you say with your mouth only means something when you accept the sacrifice in your heart.

Heart and head are both figurative. Is figurative language too tricky for you? That would explain a lot.

If you think there are some correct way of asking for salvation there's not, you just have to ask willingly.

Funny, that's exactly what I thought. Oh, and never change your mind, right?

If you're speaking of my above quote, yes all of mankind, if not then how could I be any better those who do not care.

So NOT just Christians. Who else gets in?

This is not in reference to anyone here, it's a general statement.

That's how I took it.

You know I worry about you, this is on the edge of sadist speech. You might need to look into some help.

Complain to a mod or keep your creepy, mealy-mouthed accusations to yourself.

Now to answer you, Paul said he would go to hell if all the Jews could go to heaven. He also said he knew that couldn't be, why, because it's always been about the individuals desire and Christ died as our substitute. My pleas for the lost go on in prayer and just because you do not know it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Does it happen after they're dead? Because that's what I'm talking about if you were actually following the conversation.

You have been included in my prayers and I've been here for nearly 5 years, believe me I haven't stayed here this long just to be called everything in the book.

You haven't begun to be called everything in the book and you seem to suffer from a delusion that you're being polite if you don't use bad words, and playing the martyr isn't becoming on anyone...but thanks for thinking of me.

I'll let the above answer speak to this, you sure seem to have anger issues are you okay.

I bet you run into 'anger issues' a lot, don't you? Has it ever occurred to you that you being a Christian might not be the reason for that?

No He can't they haven't asked, the further this conversation goes the more irritated you seem get.

Conversing with people who can't keep up with the conversation can get irritating, that's true. The scenario we're talking about and have been talking about is the dead asking and/or begging, whichever it takes to get a straight answer out of you, for forgiveness. In this scenario, they HAVE asked. Your position seems to be either that God won't forgive them after they've missed the 'deadline' or that for some reason which seems to be entirely convenience to your position that they utterly deserve their fate, not a single one of the teeming billions of dead people will ask God for forgiveness once they're writhing in torment and fully understand why they're being punished and what they should have done to avoid their fate.

They had their chance before death,

And the reason you can't have a chance AFTER death when you're fully informed is what? I know you don't believe God will show mercy once a person is dead, what I want to know is why.

I accepted the choice in this life, why shouldn't others have to, because they want to live their life their way.

You don't see that you've gotten some extra breaks, happening to live in a country where some version of the one true religion is the default? That someone in Syria or Bangladesh doesn't have the same opportunity to be a Christian that you got?

That's their choice, there's a price with that choice.

Not everyone has even heard of that choice. Christians have great market penetration in North America and Europe, but there are still people in some parts of the world who wouldn't know who you meant if you started talking about Jesus, and are dying to this day without ever having heard of the guy.

I have an announcement for you please listen, since I've said this to many times, they wont ask, they will only hate God even more because they seen their mistake and know what they actually gave up.

I hear you keep saying it, Repeating yourself incessantly is not a form of supporting your position. I still don't hear a reason to believe it that doesn't amount to this being what you want to believe so you don't have to deal with the idea of God shutting his ears to pleas of mercy. It's a pretty silly thing to believe, and the Bible does not say it's the case. In one of the stories Jesus told, the suffering dead beg for their loved ones to be warned. This does not sound like they're incapable of asking for mercy if they still are capable of seeking it for their loved ones.

Seems you do not know many Christians, and I've noticed that you are throwing blame onto everyone but the one's at fault.

I've been surrounded by them my whole life and continue to be surrounded by them. Most of them are not so dogmatic as you, but a large minority are, and some are even harsher. There are over 30,000 Christian denominations, only a moron would assume everyone should know what a particular Christian's specific theology is just because they say they're a Christian. It's not the fault that's the problem, it's the injustice of infinite punishment for the finite mistakes and foibles and cruelties of mere mortals. You can pretend that's not what it's about all you want, but I don't believe you're too dense to know better by now. It's not that they're being punished. It's not that they don't deserve punishment per se (though I can't wrap my head around that heroic Hindu woman deserving to be punished when Dahmer gets out by being sorry to the right deity), it's that the punishment is disproportionate (and the reward is, too), and that's what injustice is and mercy is not.

That's a sign of insecurity, are you really this insecure.

If trying to change the subject to the mental state you imagine I'm in wasn't already a cliche before this conversation, it is now.

As for the angel rebellion, God is letting evil run it's coarse, do you want to be part of the coarse, sucked into the evil Satan sales as good times.

I want to know why God made so many evil angels. And why he (supposedly) lets them mess with us. I want to know why so many of the beings who knew God personally found him SO intolerable that they knowingly chose literally the worst fate imaginable rather than stick it out. Well, that's what I want to know from people who believe that silly fable, anyway.

Maybe it's better to be on the side of the coarse that keeps people out of Satan's influence. I've chosen the latter, because I care, and I care because I know God is real and who He says He is.

If I 'knew' God was real and the same version you believe in, I would agree with you, wouldn't I? However, I don't.

Self righteous jackasses want be there either.

That should worry you. Have you considered being kinder? Giving straight answers to questions? Being patient with repeating yourself (we sure are)? Not speculating about the internal mental states of people you're conversing with instead of actually responding to what they said? Not saying 'cliche' as a way of avoiding a substantive response?

There's a reason you missed it, it's not there. I've never sold that to you or anyone else because I know that's not the truth.

A more accurate response would have been 'I"m too literal-minded to get sarcasm'.

Satan on the other hand would be more than happy to keep you believing that.

Satan is one of your gods, not mine. How you guys can consider yourselves monotheistic with God the Father, God the Spirit, God the Son, the god of evil, the archangels, archdevils, all the lesser angels and devils....that's quite a staff! But I digress. I think Satan is an imaginary enemy who's supposed existence is a serious problem for the fundamentalist Christian position.

[robvalue]

If either the Christian or islam God are the "real one" then that God is setting things up so that a huge proportion of the population go to hell just for being born in the "wrong country". For accepting exactly the same level of evidence (none) and either caving in to peer pressure, as we are programmed to often do, or to be coerced into the local belief.

I'm sure many theists would cry out that they would still become Christian even if born into an Islamic country and with the Koran being forced down their throat instead of the bible. How would that work exactly? Anyhow, statistically at least 90% of people who wish that were true would be wrong. And at least 70% or so wrong in the other direction, considering America.

So it really is a relief to know beyond reasonable doubt that neither of those monsters exist.

[Mister Agenda]

You are describing radical Muslims, those who promote your death.

Do I have to stop using analogies entirely with you? If you can't 'get' an analogy, why should I trust you to 'get' a parable?

You sir have made a very correct statement, those who believe they deserve something without committing to it will never change.

So pretty much all the people who go out of their way to tell me how certain they are that they're getting into heaven will continue to be just as smug and self-righteous as they are now? That's not exactly as selling-point.

That's exactly why they would never ask for forgiveness, they see themselves as self righteous. You are right, no big shock.

Have you ever looked up the term 'self-righteous'? It's a pair of shoes your camp is famous for wearing.

You have a right to your own opinion.

No kidding.

A ten minutes difference, and the last five do not get another chance, they had all that they needed here, God being omniscient knows this.

You're not omniscient, how do YOU know God doesn't forgive the Hindu woman?

It has noting to do with Dahmer, me or you it's about the love of forgiveness God gives to those who want forgiveness from sin against God. The credibility goes to God because He does what He promises no matter how bad a person has been.

And you are the prophet who knows exactly what God means, and all other intepretations are wrong. But you consder me to be self-righteous. You REALLY ought to look that up.

There is no contest, it's about love and the one's who want to make it a contest have little understanding.

If it's not a contest, don't parade your side's succssful conversions as though they're somehow significant. If it's not significant for the Muslims, it's not significant for the Christians, either.

I can agree Satan is grabbing up many through the muslim and mormon religions.

In your mythology, that's because God allows it. You can't blame a vicious dog on a leash for biting people when the guy walking it is letting it run around all over the place. I wonder if this is another of God's wagers with Satan.

Good, now you need to believe it.

Indoctrination from a young age is the usual way people get someone to believe that malarky, if that doesn't take, there's not much you can do without brainwashing.

Guess you'll have to wait and see.

After I'm dead, right? I figure if there is a God, we're both in for a surprise, because there's no way he can be as dumb and petty as you make him out to be.

According to me and what I absolutely know.

Thanks for the contribution to the Hall of Shame.

Wishing for a power you can't have nor handle is not even a reasonable desire.

So? It costs me nothing to wish I could spare you from a horrible fate.

My post drip with venom, you must be blind in more ways than one,

How many times in our conversation have you said or implied that I'm a liar, GC? How many times have you tried to project a negative emotional state on to me rather than give a straight reply to a post? Personally, I've lost count.

I care where you spend eternity and it seems you do not, so how is it that venom can come from someone who cares.

You say you care but you act like an ass. Actions speak louder than words, GC. Anyone can say they care. Actually showing it by treating the person with respect and dignity isn't so easy if you're an ass at heart, but braying that you care comes easy and cheap.

I guess that one who hates God and those who love God see caring as venom.

Keep telling yourself that, hypocrite. Again, to the lurkers, most Christians aren't like this guy.

Like I said, I care about where you spend eternity, if those others are tip toeing around you, then admirable isn't part of their life.

They do a lot more to get me to consider Christianity seriously than you do. If I ever start thinking it's the way to go because I'm hanging around Christians trying to be humble and loving and charitable and I start thnking that this taking Jesus into your heart stuff might actually mean something, I've got you to remind me that it's not really their Christianity that makes them that way, or there wouldn't be Christians like you.

Yes I sometimes am hard and when I am it gets your attention.

Not in a good way, GC. You remind me that Christianity is powerless to make someone a better person than they already are, although it has great power to make people think they're better.

If they are not telling you that the only way to salvation ( which includes heaven) is through Christ, then they are giving you a false testimony.

In your opinion. Which your body of work has made me consider worthless.

No that's what you want to believe, I've always told you about a loving God who wants you to spend eternity with Him, if you'll only accept.

You keep saying that he's loving but you keep describing a moral midget.

Honestly I have no idea what you're saying here, not sure I want to either.

At least your comprehension problems are starting to become as evident to you as they are to everyone who reads your posts.

---

I'll be there, will you. Want you to know something here, God doesn't care about your opinion of me.

Apparently you don't care about his opinion of you either, else you wouldn't be so smugly confident. And seriously, look up 'self-righteous'.

You should read scripture and stop asking such small questions. Christ died for you and you're call Him negative. Pleaseeee, get real.

He introduced the concept of hell. The Jews didn't have anything close to eternal agony. If you don't think that a pretty negative innovation, pleaseeee, get real.

Not unless you accept what He did and do it in this life.

In your opinion, and you know what I think that's worth.

You do not know many people do you.

I dare you to make a more stupid remark.

That's what Christians get when they try and play politics,

That, we can agree on. Getting involved in politics has done more damage to how Christianity is viewed in this country than a horde of rabid anti-theists could have.

I believe Christians need to live a Christian life and let politics take care of it's self.

That's what the Pentecostal church I was raised in taught, though it has gotten caught up in political partisanship as well. The government is 'of the world' and we have to give Caesar what is Caesar's, but trying to mix religion and politics was not considered a good idea back then,

I'm not saying Christians shouldn't run for office, they need to bring their faith with them and some do.

Everyone brings their experiences and beliefs with them. As long as they don't try to use the force of government to impose their religous views on other people, I don't care how deeply religious an elected official is.

No Christian see it that way, we're realist and know there will be unbelievers.

In the long run I think they did themselves more damage than good with these attempts to insinuate their religion into petty government matters.

I'm not whining, the most whining I hear, is the atheist here.

That's your problem you see God as a fairy tale, the truth will be revealed as you want it to be one day, but it will be to late for many.

Maybe if you didn't take metaphors so literally, you wouldn't make God sound so much like a fairy tale. There are Chrisitians with a much more believable take on God than you.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Every contributor is as good as their last post with me. I try not carry baggage from previous converstations...not that I'm perfect in that regard.

You should read more of what I post.

You should make posts that make me want to read more.

It's not my Christianity, but I'm consistent in what I say. I'm not wishy washy and tell the truth from scriptures, no one here as ever overturned any explanation I've given for verses,

It's impossible to persuade someone who thinks they can't possibly be wrong, so it means nothing that you don't think any of your explanations have been overturned. You're so blinkdered that you'd be the last person to know if they were.

They've made attempts but have never brought any proof. I know Christians are suppose to bring the truth but, you know what, you all say that because you have no counter proof, it's your way of avoiding intelligent Biblical discussions.

Like I said, since you think you can't be wrong, you're going to think nothing we say can possibly refute anything you have to say when it comes to the Bible. You can't even entertain the possibilty that you might be wrong and you wouldn't know a cogent refutation if it bit your nose off.

It's why you use foul language, a distraction from the relevant.

Not that I've been using foul language myself, you're just butt-hurt over things other people have said, but what is all the talk of cliches and my moods but a distraction from the relevant? It's not okay just because you avoid 'bad' words.

Good, I couldn't agree more.

Looks like we have common ground when it comes to some things, I'll try to keep that in mind, but memory isn't my strongest suit. Feel free to remind me of it if you think my opinion of you has sunk to an unreasonable low.

To many Christians have become soft and believe they are injured by words and other petty things. I assume my rights as a citizen of this country and speak my mind. I do try doing it without being barbaric.

Careful, I might start to like and/or respect you.

How so, please show me so I'll know what you are speaking of?

First, I know I can be harsh, my saving grace in that regard pretty much starts and ends with not holding on to it. I feel that often your replies are evasive, which is frustrating and doesn't advance the discussion. You have repeatedly questioned my honesty and integrity: I admit, I've occasionally done the same with you, but I tend to reflect the attitude I feel I'm getting...that doesn't make it okay, but it's the way I am, and it's not like I claim to have Jesus dwelling in my heart. I do tend to return respect and courtesy if I feel I'm getting it. I'm easily mollified. The attitude you pick up off of my posts is a good indication of how I feel about the attitude in yours.

First of all I asked you a question, if you do not want to respond then just say so or ignore the question.

I was trying to convey that it was a stupid question since I never claimed you threatened anyone. There is such a thing as a stupid question. I consider a counter-question that insinuates I've made claims about you that I haven't to be an evasion at best. I don't think the standard of decency should be 'not having personally threatened someone'.

Secondly I give you what scripture says, it's not my fault you do not like what it says, I know it can be convicting and bothersome, but don't blame me for what scripture does.

It doesn't sound convicting or bothersome, it sounds ridiculous because you consistently choose the most literal and silly or harsh interpretation possible. But you can't consider that as a possibility because you don't think it's possible for you to be wrong in Biblical matters, just like millions of other fundamentalists who disagree with you on various points but are equally sure THEY can't be wrong or have any bias on Biblical matters either.

So you're saying that I'm not to act like the atheist here, now that's a new thing, not sure I know what to make of it.

You were under the impression that as a Christian you were supposed to act like the average AF atheist? Really?

If you want to see Christ in my life come be my neighbor and observe, I'll gladly welcome you here.

If I can't see Christ in your posts, I strongly doubt I'll see him in your life.

You didn't know me before I was saved, you wouldn't have liked me, but I'm sure there are some here who would have.

That's true. But I've seen a lot of people 'get saved' only to become a different kind of obnoxious from what they were before. I'm sure the experience profoundly changes some people's lives, though, and I'll take your word that you are one of those.

I agree from a human standpoint, but eternal life will not be judged from a human standpoint, for those who do not accept Christ it will be a judgement against God's goodness and the laws of Moses.

Yes, you say that often, but frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm taking it that really observant Jews can get into heaven, which is a little bit better than those who think only Jews who become Christians can rate salvation.

It's evidence and valid, valid enough I will never give up what I know to be the truth, but for some reason if I give spiritual evidence only Christians seem to understand.

Ah. Spiritual evidence. The same kind of evidence all the other religions have.

I'll try to get to the last part of your post later.

No hurry, I know it's a lot, that's why I've tried to break up my reply into more digestible chunks. And it's okay to not reply to something you don't think merits a substantive response.

[Tonus]

We are not making the end times come to pass.
We are not in control of the increase in earthquakes, or natural disasters.
we are not longing for the wreckage to come but for the resolution of it.

The sin of man has brought forth the Man of Sin.
And he is in place because people who call themselves Christians voted against the core beliefs of Christianity.
This time, you can rightly include blame toward us for what is and what is coming.

The thing is that, even with the constant news cycle and our predilection for bad news, the world is actually getting better and better. Maybe the people who are all doom-and-gloom and worried about the second coming are the ones you need to be suspicious about.

[The Valkyrie]

We are not making the end times come to pass.
We are not in control of the increase in earthquakes, or natural disasters.
we are not longing for the wreckage to come but for the resolution of it.

The sin of man has brought forth the Man of Sin.
And he is in place because people who call themselves Christians voted against the core beliefs of Christianity.
This time, you can rightly include blame toward us for what is and what is coming.

The thing is that, even with the constant news cycle and our predilection for bad news, the world is actually getting better and better. Maybe the people who are all doom-and-gloom and worried about the second coming are the ones you need to be suspicious about.

We know the real reason for the coming destruction of humanity, the increase in natural disasters . . .

[Whateverist]

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

[professor]

I was watching a Youtube vid a couple of days ago by David Berlinski, and he was saying how there is a resurgence of "Things are getting better" as the people who lived during the 20th century are dying off.

Those who fully remember WW1,WW2, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot, on and on, threw in the towel long ago on the "Better" idea after living in the horrors of the last century.

The old quote: "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it". Bears repeating.

I see it at work.
The company stupidly gave incentives (both by nasty behavior and financial incentives) to encourage the older people to leave.
Multiplied hundreds of years of experience- gone.
The deep lessons on what NOT to do left with them.
Now, the young engineers (thru no fault of their own) repeat the dumb mistakes the old guys did in the past.

You think things are improving? How old are you? It's OK, you don't need to answer.

[Anomalocaris]

The old quote: "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it". Bears repeating.

I guess those who didn't remember the world continuing when they inferred from the bible that it would end is doom to remain biblical morons forever.