The Crazy, Screwed Up Story of Lot

[Strider]

What is it about religious people and sexuality? they're obsessed.

Yep. I've never quite understood it. God, a creator-being so powerful that he was able to create the earth in a day and all of the stars in our universe almost as an afterthought. He created everything on the planet, everything in the universe, devised the laws of physics, and a universe so vast that we cannot begin to comprehend it - so vast that our own planet and humanity itself amounts to far less than a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.

And despite all of this, a chief preoccupation of His is what exactly a man decides to do with his penis.

Brilliant.

[Minimalist]

The god of the OT is very human in his ways and manners

There's a reason for that. He was created by men with limited imaginations.

[robvalue]

Check out the genesis god. He was like a bumbling old man crashing into things and screwing everything up. Walking around in a deluded state saying, "I made that! I did that! Wow...hey there's some naked people."

[Minimalist]

hey there's some naked people.

..."and now I am going to fuck them up for all time!"

[Drich]

The story has come up on a couple of threads here but I thought it would be helpful to provide the biblically sound summarization of the story.

Three dudes, who were secretly undercover angels, came to visit Abraham in his tent. God asked them if he should tell Abraham what he is going to do about Sodom (Genesis 18:17) Yep, bible god asked the angels for their advice.

Often times a good leader of men will involve their subordniates in a desision as a measure of good faith. This actually shows us that God reconizes the needs and wants of those who serve Him. Meaning we have been given a clue as to the nature of how God runs Heaven. In this case He looks to His subordinates to include them even in a small or trivial way so as to create a family type of atmosphere rather than a dictator state.

In verse 20. God tells Abraham that there have been complaints about Sodom so he is going to check it out himself because somehow an omnipotent god can't just know everything.

-Or-
God gave the residents of Sodom an oppertunity to prove to themselves how wicked they were. So when He rained down hell fire and brimstone they are not left to wonder why.

There are several verses where god and Abraham negotiate how many innocent people are worth saving. Abraham gets god down to ten people.

So? God knew Abraham couldn't find that many so what was the harm their in his challenge? Again God is showing us that He can be share trivial desisions with us, as a means to satasify our own hearts.

Again God knew their weren't 10 people in that whole city that was worth saving, but abraham didn't. So rather than force abraham to live with an unknown, God let Abraham see for himself.

Are there no pregnant women or infants in Sodom? Surely, fetuses are innocent and must be saved at all cost. What about little kids? Does Sodom not have any kids or slaves that are forced to live in the city? Wouldn't they be innocent also?

If the men of Sodom were rape mob hungry for 'fresh meat' what makes you think all other potential targets in their own homes have not already been exploited?

Chapter 19

Two angels stroll in to Sodom. Despite the fact that this city that is so dangerous that it has to be destroyed, Lot feels comfortable enough to sit out in the open.I realize that sitting at the gates was what well respected members of the community did back then but how could a 'righteous man' be respected in such a horrible community?

Horrible communities up lift the wealthy. If you read back where Abraham and Lot parted company you will note Lot took a large number of live stock they shared and settled region of green medows that Sodom and Gamorrah was located in.

Modern god didn't even wipe out Germany for killing his chosen people.

Have you ever read either books of Judges? There are many nations in whom god uses to 'judge Israel.'

What "Modern God" Did was use the actions of Hitler's Germany to answer a 2000 year old prayer. In that Israel was given their Holy Land back.

Just like in many of the prophetic books the Jews were scattered or held in captivity, they endure tremoundous hardship and then God gives them another chance, by returning them to their Holy Land.

(sorry, to Godwin this story)How bad can Sodom be if Lot can sit out in the open? Besides, what kind of subjects could a good man discuss with a bunch of men that like to rape guests?

There are always matters of money. In my business I do not only sell to Christians. Not to mention I have spent the last two or three years here discussing lots of things with you 'good' people.

There is a back and forth as Lot tries to convince the angels to come stay at his home. Originally, the angels wanted to sleep in the square. Finally, Lot convinces them and they go to his house.

ALL the men in Sodom, both young and old ,go to Lot's house and demand Lot's two guests so that they can have sex with them. I would assume that this meant rape but the KJV uses the term "to know them". Genesis 19:5

In the Hebrew the term "to know them" means to carnaly know through experience... I don't think the orginal intent was to rape, but I also do not think the were going to let No mean No either. It is of the idea the were going to 'Know them' one way or another.

Lot begs the men not to attack his guests but offers his two virginal daughters instead. The bible doesn't say how the two girls felt because.. pfft, women.

I know this was pre law, but at the same time Lot must have known that Homosexuality carried a death sentence. If the whole Male population was going to run a train on these two strangers, Lot knew this was a death sentence for the whole city.

To offer His daughters was a confused man's attempt to save his home town. (Because hetrosexual Rape was not a capital crime.) As I said before this action was not recomended or condoned by the angels or God. this was one man's confused panicked response to try and save a city.

Apparently, it doesn't occur to Lot to offer himself. The townsmen say they won't listen to Lot because he came to them as a foreigner.

Again Lot being male would still have meant a death sentence for the city.

(verse 19) When Lot first arrived at the city was there a rape and greet for him too? If so, why did he stay?

again the wealthy are treated differently. Lot was a wealthy man. He stayed their because he was treated well, and made lots of money. the only other option was to live in the open desert as Abraham did.

Has this happened before? Again, why did he stay? I thought that Lot was so respected that he sat at the city's gates but the crowd seems to have zero respect for him because he is a foreigner.

Mob entitlement usally defaults to carnality. Meaning when a mob of people get together and want something they are not easily reasoned with till they get it. I am sure Lot was well respected one on one, but when the horde got together they only had one thing on their minds.

The angels pull Lot back inside and blind the men. They ask Lot if he has any in laws that live in the city and tell him that he should urge them to leave. Um....the angels came from an all knowing god. Shouldn't they be know whether Lot had someone else in the city he wanted to save?

Why? God is all knowing that doesn't mean they were.

When I dispatch a driver or a tech to perform a certain task even if I know there will be several small things they have to deal with, I won't mention it. Why? Because i don't have idots working for me. They are all smart enough to complete a simple task I set them on. That said if their are alot of variables they have to deal with I will give them a heads up.. To me this does not feel that way. This is a "test the men of sodom and if they fail round up Lot and His people and get them out of there. Oh and tell them not to look back." Kinda deal

Lot goes to have a conversation with his sons-in-law...wait....I thought that ALL the men of Sodom gathered at Lot's door. That means that his married daughters' husbands were outside blind. His blind son-in-laws thought he was joking.verse 14

As you pointed out the people of Sodom considered Lot an outsider. This would mean those who married into his family were also outsiders. (Therefore not counted among the men of Sodom.)

In the morning, the angels wake Lot and his family up. The angels take the hands of the family and flee. Lot's wife looks at the destruction and turns to a pillar of salt. What kind of destruction could be happening that would turn someone to a pillar of salt?

The Kind that God says don't do "X" and when "X" is done God dispatches angle with a Salt converter gun to blast the offending party... In truth what does a Hell fire and Brimestone shower look like?
What are it's side effects? Maybe a volcanic eruption, of which molten salts are a possible side effect...

I could understand if their eyes burnt out from the sight but why a pillar of salt?

Maybe it was one of those movie scenes where the hero's are running from a lava flow and if they stop for an instant they will be over taken but in this case molten salt. Or Maybe when Lot's wife looked back she saw a train wreck unfolding, and stood in or just on top of a thermal vent of molten salt. and then looked back she was dumb-founded/deer in the head lights by what she saw and was over taken by the molten salt in an instant...

Or I like the salt ray gun just as well.

Lot begs to go into the little city of Zoar and god agrees to not destroy.verses 18-21.

For some reason Lot leaves Zoar and heads into the mountains. Does god not keep his word about destroying Zoar or did Lot not trust god?

As the bible does not say we can only speculate. Maybe Lot saw alot of the same stuff going down in Zoar and knew it would only be a matter of time. Or maybe the villagers saw him as a bad omen and tormented him till he left... who knows. Maybe being poor now he did not get the same treatment as he did in sodom and left because he found it hard to sit.

Questions about Sodom. How did this city even function with so many individuals running around raping visitors?

It would appear that was a Saturday night activity.

Wouldn't travelers and merchants begin to avoid the city, after awhile?

Depends on the travler or merchant.

I am going to guess that they didn't put that kind of thing in their travel brochure but still, word would have gotten out.

And if all cities were this way to one degree or another? I've got to think that most population centers back then were what we like to think of in our post apocalyptic visions of the future. In essence human nature is the same, the difference between our visions of the future and now is accountiblity via police/criminal justice system. after the apocalypse, this accountablity goes away. allowing man to indulge himself to his own ends.

One has to think back then they were not too far from our vision of the future. People travled back then because they needed something another reigion produced. no one was going on vacation. Meaning if one travled it was a matter of survival. stay and starve/die or chance getting 'sodomized.'

Why did Lot marry his daughters to men who lived in Sodom?

Because they would rufie him and rape him if he didn't?

Were you born evil in Sodom? There must have been children in the city

I think the people of sodom were born as we are, just without the same restriction and concern for the law of God.

I will put the rest of the story up later. If anyone disagrees with what I wrote then please explain your reasons and use bible verses. For anyone who hasn't read the bible, yes, this is the actual story.

You did a good job with the bible verses. The conflict you have is that of most people.

You have a narrow view of God based on years of religios study. The problem? It's wrong. How do I know it is wrong? Because you see a descrepency in the biblical version of God from what you understand God to be, and you wrongly assume that your personal religious view is equally as correct as the biblical view creating a paradox.

The short answer?

Have you hear the parable of the wise and foolish builders? 'Wise man build his house on the rock, and the foolish man built his house on the sand. When the rains came the wise man's house stood firm while the foolish man's house was swept away by the wind and rain.'

The house we build is our religion. our religious ideals. The wise and foolish builders can build a house that looks exactly the same. The only difference being the foundation. Meaning two men can go to the same church live an identical life, and still yet one man's faith will crumple when tested and another's will stand strong. The difference? The Rock that is Christ. What is the rock? an accurate picture or a understanding of God that completely fills all that you can comperhend of God.

You built your house on the sand and when your picture of God was tested your house was swept away. More specifically you belived that your religious picture of God was complete/accurate, but when you tested that picture against just what the bible says, you see/saw big problems. Rather than admitting that your religious understanding of God may have been in error, you assume that God could not exist if the bible is absolutly correct and your understanding of God is also equally correct.

This is why we are called to humble ourselves before God and allow him to lift us up. It does not seem you were humble enough to question what you know, you assume the paradoxes you found were the result of foolish God. How can I say this? Look at your thread. What is being questioned there? Your understanding of God or the paradoxes you think you [/quote]see in the bible?

[Strider]

What "Modern God" Did was use the actions of Hitler's Germany to answer a 2000 year old prayer. In that Israel was given their Holy Land back.

Just like in many of the prophetic books the Jews were scattered or held in captivity, they endure tremoundous hardship and then God gives them another chance, by returning them to their Holy Land.

I am going to flatly ignore everything else said.

Are you seriously suggesting that god was somehow answering a prayer through the actions of Hitler and his attempted genocide of the Jews simply because it ended with them regaining "the holy land"? God subjected them to hardship in the form of mass murder and torture of the most obscene level and their reward for living through it is a plot of dusty land surrounded by enemies? That is absolutely monstrous and sick beyond words.

[abaris]

Are you seriously suggesting that god was somehow answering a prayer through the actions of Hitler and his attempted genocide of the Jews simply because it ended with them regaining "the holy land"? God subjected them to hardship in the form of mass murder and torture of the most obscene level and their reward for living through it is a plot of dusty land surrounded by enemies? That is absolutely monstrous and sick beyond words.

You grew up in the South and never heard that beauty before? I grew up thousands of miles away and am very familiar with that claim. Read it on the internet, heard it being made on the internet, usually by some raving televangelist foaming from the mouth. And it's not the first time, this pile of steaming shit comes up on this very board. Not sure, if it's Drich's favorite aroma, but there are other, who fit the bill equally well.

It's disgusting christian lunacy at it's finest. Some kind of self delusions so they can still believe in their benevolent sky daddy, even making some sense in the most atrocious of situations.

And don't you hear the trumpets, that's Armageddon. See, it's not out of love for the jewish people that they're so crazy about a jewish state in Israel. It's because of some ancient end of days prophecy.

I briefly considered to adress the rest of bullshit in Drich's post, but given the amount covering the floor, it's more than Hercules could have handled when cleaning the stables of Augias.

[robvalue]

If we can't mop up all the shit they spewed before they post again, they win, apparently. Weird way to debate.

[Strider]

You grew up in the South and never heard that beauty before? I grew up thousands of miles away and am very familiar with that claim. Read it on the internet, heard it being made on the internet, usually by some raving televangelist foaming from the mouth. And it's not the first time, this pile of steaming shit comes up on this very board. Not sure, if it's Drich's favorite aroma, but there are other, who fit the bill equally well.

It's disgusting christian lunacy at it's finest. Some kind of self delusions so they can still believe in their benevolent sky daddy, even making some sense in the most atrocious of situations.

And don't you hear the trumpets, that's Armageddon. See, it's not out of love for the jewish people that they're so crazy about a jewish state in Israel. It's because of some ancient end of days prophecy.

I briefly considered to adress the rest of bullshit in Drich's post, but given the amount covering the floor, it's more than Hercules could have handled when cleaning the stables of Augias.

I'll admit this is the first time I've heard that argument. Considering where I grew up and still live, that is an insane claim even judged against the standard crazy I have to deal with on a regular basis. It is appalling. How could an individual worship a supposed magnanimous, omnipotent entity that would allow wholesale slaughter to occur for some inane end result such as land ownership to come about? How gruesome and dreadful a claim.

And Christians claim that atheists have no morals. What a laugh.

[abaris]

How could an individual worship a supposed magnanimous, omnipotent entity that would allow wholesale slaughter to occur for some inane end result such as land ownership to come about? How gruesome and dreadful a claim.

For them it's no inane end result, since in their minds, dancing the twist, it works towards the end times. And end time visions are christian porn.