Christianity and its effect on self-worth

[dyresand]

Well all southern baptists anyways.

...I thought it was "babtist"?

Edit: Somebody let me know if this is some sort of joke I'm not getting.

There is a huge difference between the north and the southern baptists.

[Godscreated]

You care to point out what I said that was so bad, I'm serious.

GC

While what you said in the post responding to me, in your sick, twisted way, wasn't comparatively that bad, it's what you've said during your entire stay at this forum. You're actually a great representative of Christianity in East Tennessee. Congratulations.

You made reference to what I said in my post to you, so what was in there that made you so mad, all I was trying to do was show you that this place has great people in it, that is if you desire to associate with them and I'm not referring to only Christian, I have non-Christian friends.

GC

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Well all southern baptists anyways.

...I thought it was "babtist"?

Edit: Somebody let me know if this is some sort of joke I'm not getting.

Yes it's a joke, I was making fun of us hillbillies and our terble speling.

GC

[Spooky]

While what you said in the post responding to me, in your sick, twisted way, wasn't comparatively that bad, it's what you've said during your entire stay at this forum. You're actually a great representative of Christianity in East Tennessee. Congratulations.

You made reference to what I said in my post to you, so what was in there that made you so mad, all I was trying to do was show you that this place has great people in it, that is if you desire to associate with them and I'm not referring to only Christian, I have non-Christian friends.

GC

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...I thought it was "babtist"?

Edit: Somebody let me know if this is some sort of joke I'm not getting.

Yes it's a joke, I was making fun of us hillbillies and our terble speling.

GC

Ah, fair enough.

[Esquilax]

No they do not, you're expressing an opinion, more atheist take their lives than Christians period.

Yes, but not because atheists are more mentally ill than christians, merely because christians have moral objections to suicide based on their unjustified god claims that atheists don't have. In short, the reasons christians take their lives less is because they don't want to piss off god, not because they don't want to kill themselves.

Did you read the study, GC? Because I did.

Christians are not exempt from mental disorders and the study shows they handle it better.

That's not what the literal conclusion of the study was.

You can hold to your belief as to why, though it's not true nor factual.

It's what the study itself, the study you referenced, concluded. If you don't like that, take it up with the writers of the study, not with me. But don't reference a study when it agrees with you, and then disregard it when it doesn't; is the study a worthy reference in your eyes or not?

I live in the Christian community and so doing have a better insight into what they believe.

I live around christians too: in fact, my immediate surrounds contains exactly one atheist other than myself. Everyone else is a believer. By your logic that gives me exactly the same insight that you have, but for some reason I suspect you won't be agreeing with me on that point; special pleading is a bitch, isn't it?

The OP was Christianity makes self esteem worse for Christians than the unbelief of atheist. The study shows this isn't true thus my argument against the OP.

The study shows that incidences of mental illness are equal between the two groups; it says nothing at all about self esteem. You're just fabricating, now.

You bring things in from atheist sites and evolutionary sites, both are biased in nature to Christian beliefs, but I guess this little thing has eluded you.

Sorry, but "conflicting with GC's specific version of the christian belief system," is not the same thing as "biased."

You are contradicting yourself and the study, first you say the rate of suicide is lower in Christians then you say it's equal to the atheist rate of suicide, and I'm suppose to take your ideas seriously, especially when you are doing what the study and others studies say,"passing the problems onto others," mainly Christians.

Actually, you're just not paying attention, but that's not surprising. I never once said that the atheist suicide rate is lower than christians, and what I said was equal to christians is the rate of mental illness between the groups. I've said that in language that's plenty clear multiple times; so, why should I take your ideas seriously when it's apparent you aren't even absorbing what I'm saying before you respond?

The study by these institutions show Christians are not exempt from mental disorders nor suicide and it also shows that Christians can cope with this better because of their beliefs.

No, it just shows that they don't kill themselves as often, despite the same levels of mental illness and life stress. The study only mentions that moral objections to suicide are more prevalent among christians, but not doing something because it'll land you in hell, or because god doesn't want you to, or whatever those moral objections might be, is not the same thing as coping better.

The study shows atheist have no support in their disbelief because there's nothing in disbelief to help, disbelief is necessarily nothing.

Doesn't say that, either. How much of this study occurred just in your mind, you think?

This is what the OP's about, right, that Christianity degrades the Christian's self worth and if this was true the suicide rate should necessarily be higher for us, but the reality of it is atheist have a higher rate of suicide.

Why would that "necessarily" be the case? That's just you asserting what you want to be true; wanting to commit suicide doesn't mean that you want to go to hell. The christian could still want to die, and just be afraid of hell. Or want to die, but not want to offend god- there's someone in my personal life who's a die hard christian believer doing exactly that, risking his life and refusing medical treatment so as to die more quickly, without just outright committing suicide and offending god.

There are plenty of reasons a christian- or anyone who believes in an afterlife- to avoid suicide without having a high self worth. You shouldn't just add in things that you want to be true, but aren't present in the study, GC. Especially when the study itself says otherwise.

As for gloating, that's been your signature ever since you've been here, you think more highly of yourself than even your fellow atheist and that's exactly why all the Christians here have a problem with you.

Interesting: when did you gain the ability to read my mind, to be able to tell me what I think?

Oh wait, you can't do that? You're just bullshitting in your usual holier than thou way?

Even if it were for imaginary reasons, which it's not, the fact remains that the OP is in contradiction to the institutions studies, the OP is nothing more than unprofessional opinion.

Again, your "lower self worth correlates to higher suicide rates," is a completely unjustified non-sequitur. Firstly because there are more ranges of self worth than just "normal" or "suicidal," but also because the premises of the christian belief system tend to preclude suicide without necessarily affecting self worth.

These institutions are of the highest professionalism and their research stands as such also. The disease doesn't effect both equally, if it did the suicide rate would be the same, you really do have trouble with understanding this, don't you.

The disease is present in both groups equally, which is what I actually said. Moreover, you don't really understand nuanced topics like mental illness, do you? Why the black and white binary idea of how it affects people?

It doesn't offend my dignity, it's against all I believe, human life will always be more important than an animals and if you can't see this you are someone to be feared in your judgment.

What if I believe animal life to be as precious as a humans? Why is it that your idea of human parity with animals involves only degrading animals? You say you'd fear my judgment, but I'm not the one of us whose only idea of what life would be if it wasn't magically created is solely negative.

If you can't see that human life is far more valuable than an animals you are seriously callous, maybe heartless. God created us to have a relationship with Him and gave us dominion over the animals, that's the simple answer, yet something you want accept.

As usual, the christian's response is instructive in that it projects so much; GC seems to be unable of envisioning a worldview where people don't think of all other forms of life as lesser. He can't even imagine a worldview where respect for animal life is elevated, rather than just human life being denigrated.

If even the possibility that I might hold all forms of life in equal, high respect didn't even occur to you, well, then I don't think I'm the callous one for being able to do so, where you can't.

That's no justification, evolution shows no respect for any life being any more important and in conversations all over this site it's been made quite clear this is the effect evolution has on people.

Evolution isn't a mind, it can't respect anything. But as a being with a mind myself, I can respect humans for being a unique product of evolution. Just because evolution doesn't favor any one species inherently doesn't mean that it hasn't produced anything important or special as a part of its equal process.

I've seen time and again evolutionist state that no one life is more important than another, this kind of thinking degrades human life, this is exactly what atheist have to deal with when believing suicide is the answer.

... Unless that equality of life is equally high. It's so very telling that the only position you can even imagine is a person thinking of all life as being equally low.

But that's your problem, and not mine. It's not my fault that you can't- or won't- share my respect and admiration for all life equally.

Your expressed opinion of fiat nothingness doesn't match the study, however the bases of Christianity fits the study well.

It is a fiat nothing: "God thinks humans are special, therefore they are," is just god's opinion, it's not an actual objective fact. And the fact is that your view of christianity is apparently so nihilistic and bleak that you can't even imagine anyone valuing life for life, instead of the thumbs up of a space wizard.

My reasoning has been expressed by many evolutionist, even Darwin's father who proposed evolution in his writings before Darwin came to this conclusion. Darwin's father had no proof of what he was proposing, no scientific certainties just a belief, yep a belief system is the way evolution started and continues to this day. Deny this all you want but, the truth of evolution is out there and you can't get rid of it. Evolution is detrimental to man and his health.

GC

It's unfortunate that your dark, horrible religion has tainted you to such an extent that you think "all life is equal," automatically means "all life is equally worthless." Such a shame.

[Godscreated]

Yes it's a joke, I was making fun of us hillbillies and our terble speling.

GC

Ah, fair enough.

I've had more people to tell me I misspelled baptist and I can't understand why. I spelled it correctly just under the misspelling in my religious view. I thought it might help lighten things up to make fun of myself, seems though it didn't have the effect I though it would.

GC

[Godscreated]

No they do not, you're expressing an opinion, more atheist take their lives than Christians period.

Yes, but not because atheists are more mentally ill than christians, merely because christians have moral objections to suicide based on their unjustified god claims that atheists don't have. In short, the reasons christians take their lives less is because they don't want to piss off god, not because they don't want to kill themselves.

I didn't say atheist were more mentally ill, the depth of mental illness varies from person to person.
The study did not say Christians belief is unjustified, that's comes from your biased mind. Like I said earlier, I know Christians far better than you do, I'm with them all the time and Christians have a God understood respect for life, why do you think we desire eternal life with God. If things were what you believe we wouldn't want to spend eternity with God. Your opinion has no validity to it. I do understand most atheist and their attachment to evolution and it's belief that human life is no more valuable than an ants life, have no respect for human life above the things most of us eat.

Christians are not exempt from mental disorders and the study shows they handle it better.

That's not what the literal conclusion of the study was.

Yes it was, if Christians take their life less often then the only conclusion is Christians handle depression better. With everything being equal except for the belief difference, there is no doubt about Christians handling depression better.

You can hold to your belief as to why, though it's not true nor factual.

It's what the study itself, the study you referenced, concluded. If you don't like that, take it up with the writers of the study, not with me. But don't reference a study when it agrees with you, and then disregard it when it doesn't; is the study a worthy reference in your eyes or not?

Sure it's a good study, if I had doubt I wouldn't have posted it, the institutions alone were worthy enough to use their study. The study did not say Christians don't kill themselves because they are afraid of God, some Christians believe it's murder, but fewer believe that outside the Catholic Church. Christians seek to honor God and I doubt that killing oneself is a way to honor someone who holds life sacred.

I live in the Christian community and so doing have a better insight into what they believe.

I live around christians too: in fact, my immediate surrounds contains exactly one atheist other than myself. Everyone else is a believer. By your logic that gives me exactly the same insight that you have, but for some reason I suspect you won't be agreeing with me on that point; special pleading is a bitch, isn't it?

There's no special pleading here, I would bet you do not attend church with them or go out of your way to understand how they feel, this is my way, I desire to know them. I would be surprised if you reacted with them, your posts lead to that conclusion. So your whining about special pleading holds no water.

The OP was Christianity makes self esteem worse for Christians than the unbelief of atheist. The study shows this isn't true thus my argument against the OP.

The study shows that incidences of mental illness are equal between the two groups; it says nothing at all about self esteem. You're just fabricating, now.

You are running out of a defense, self esteem has much to do with depression, you're just trying to deflect and the OP was specific about self esteem.

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You are contradicting yourself and the study, first you say the rate of suicide is lower in Christians then you say it's equal to the atheist rate of suicide, and I'm suppose to take your ideas seriously, especially when you are doing what the study and others studies say,"passing the problems onto others," mainly Christians.

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Actually, you're just not paying attention, but that's not surprising.

I'm paying very close attention to what you're saying, you're deflecting again.

I never once said that the atheist suicide rate is lower than christians,

Here's the proof I'm paying attention, I did not say you said atheist suicide was less than Christians, you've read that in, why I don't know, but I'm guessing you know.

and what I said was equal to christians is the rate of mental illness between the groups. I've said that in language that's plenty clear multiple times; so, why should I take your ideas seriously when it's apparent you aren't even absorbing what I'm saying before you respond?

Yes you did say that and I've agreed the whole time, I've understood that and haven't shown I have a problem with that. Yet you accuse me of not paying attention, especially when you have said, I was saying you said, that atheist had a lower rate of suicide. As you can read above I did not say that nor imply it. So who's not paying attention. We got to get off this you said I said thing, I'm starting to reread 3 or 4 time to make sure I've written it down correctly.

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The study by these institutions show Christians are not exempt from mental disorders nor suicide and it also shows that Christians can cope with this better because of their beliefs.

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No, it just shows that they don't kill themselves as often, despite the same levels of mental illness and life stress. The study only mentions that moral objections to suicide are more prevalent among christians, but not doing something because it'll land you in hell, or because god doesn't want you to, or whatever those moral objections might be, is not the same thing as coping better.

Let's say for a moment you're correct, it works and less Christians are dying of the same disease, and IMO that's a plus and it's a plus atheist do not have. When one group has this and the other doesn't, it's considered a copying mechanism, no matter the reason. Now I do not agree with what you said above, because Christians do cope better because of the results, we do not take our lives as often. Personally one life lost on either side of this issue is to many.

The study shows atheist have no support in their disbelief because there's nothing in disbelief to help, disbelief is necessarily nothing.

Doesn't say that, either. How much of this study occurred just in your mind, you think?

Here you go again deflecting, it's obvious what the study reveals, you just do not want to see what's in front of your face, your common sense is failing you.

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This is what the OP's about, right, that Christianity degrades the Christian's self worth and if this was true the suicide rate should necessarily be higher for us, but the reality of it is atheist have a higher rate of suicide.

---

Why would that "necessarily" be the case? That's just you asserting what you want to be true; wanting to commit suicide doesn't mean that you want to go to hell. The christian could still want to die, and just be afraid of hell. Or want to die, but not want to offend god- there's someone in my personal life who's a die hard christian believer doing exactly that, risking his life and refusing medical treatment so as to die more quickly, without just outright committing suicide and offending god.

You need to get off this hell thing, outside the Catholic church few Christians believe one will go to hell because of suicide, we believe sin is forgiven remember. But most Christians do not believe suicide is a sin, we understand it's the result of a disease, why would a mental disease differ from a physical one?
I do not know that person's situation so I can't say and I'm sorry for thee difficulty it's causing you. I can say this though,my mother has already set it up with her doctor not to be treated for cancer if she happens to get it. She's 88 and doesn't want to go through the harsh times cancer brings, I will honor that. She recently broke her hip which is a bad deal at her age, she didn't give up she fought to get better because she wanted to live, her doctors and caregivers were amazed at her recovery, so was her family. She has determined what constitutes a good reason to live on. So she's made her decision before hand.

There are plenty of reasons a christian- or anyone who believes in an afterlife- to avoid suicide without having a high self worth. You shouldn't just add in things that you want to be true, but aren't present in the study, GC. Especially when the study itself says otherwise.

Esquilax, people who commit suicide do not have a high self worth, that's why people consider suicide, people with high self esteem rarely commit suicide. I'm not adding anything to the study, it says that Christians do cope with depression better because of their belief in God. You believe hell and fear as reasons for that belief to hinder Christians from taking their lives. I know that Christians have a different reason than you want to believe, it's the sanctity of life that Christianity gives us. Again you need to get over the hell thing, it could work for Catholics, but it just doesn't play into the greater part of the protestants.

Even if it were for imaginary reasons, which it's not, the fact remains that the OP is in contradiction to the institutions studies, the OP is nothing more than unprofessional opinion.

Again, your "lower self worth correlates to higher suicide rates," is a completely unjustified non-sequitur. Firstly because there are more ranges of self worth than just "normal" or "suicidal," but also because the premises of the christian belief system tend to preclude suicide without necessarily affecting self worth.

Of coarse there are different levels of low self esteem, but very low self esteem is a cause of suicide and the OP refers to most Christians being brainwashed into low self esteem. However Christians deal with depression better than atheist, belief is the big difference between the two groups, you believe one reason and I another, the result is that Christians do better with depression as far as suicide concerned.

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These institutions are of the highest professionalism and their research stands as such also. The disease doesn't effect both equally, if it did the suicide rate would be the same, you really do have trouble with understanding this, don't you.

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The disease is present in both groups equally, which is what I actually said. Moreover, you don't really understand nuanced topics like mental illness, do you? Why the black and white binary idea of how it affects people?

I know you've said this over and over and I've agreed every time and no I'm not a doctor, but I can read what they have discovered and that's really all that's needed to challenge the OP and continue this conversation.

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It doesn't offend my dignity, it's against all I believe, human life will always be more important than an animals and if you can't see this you are someone to be feared in your judgment.

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What if I believe animal life to be as precious as a humans? Why is it that your idea of human parity with animals involves only degrading animals?

Then there's something wrong with your reasoning, scary wrong. I'm not degrading animals I have a real respect for them, but their lives are not as important as a human life. I raise rottweilers and they are smarter than some people I know, but I'll tell you this if one of them indiscriminately bite some one I myself would put that dog down, a human life is far more important than even my own rotties. I will also say this, I have more respect for my rotts than I do some people.

You say you'd fear my judgment, but I'm not the one of us whose only idea of what life would be if it wasn't magically created is solely negative.

If there were no God you can bet your life I would have been one to fear, if there was no one superior to have to answer to why hold back, after you die you'll never know what people would think about you.

If you can't see that human life is far more valuable than an animals you are seriously callous, maybe heartless. God created us to have a relationship with Him and gave us dominion over the animals, that's the simple answer, yet something you want accept.

As usual, the christian's response is instructive in that it projects so much; GC seems to be unable of envisioning a worldview where people don't think of all other forms of life as lesser. He can't even imagine a worldview where respect for animal life is elevated, rather than just human life being denigrated.

I have respect for all life, I'm not however going to put any above human life or equal to it, enough said about this. My big beef here is this, if you are going to carry on a conversation with me you need to address me and not talk pass me. This shows how little you consider the value of humans.

If even the possibility that I might hold all forms of life in equal, high respect didn't even occur to you, well, then I don't think I'm the callous one for being able to do so, where you can't.

According to your belief, to hold all life to a standard is relative, so my respect of an ant could very well be higher than your respect or lack there of, human life.

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That's no justification, evolution shows no respect for any life being any more important and in conversations all over this site it's been made quite clear this is the effect evolution has on people.

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Evolution isn't a mind, it can't respect anything. But as a being with a mind myself, I can respect humans for being a unique product of evolution. Just because evolution doesn't favor any one species inherently doesn't mean that it hasn't produced anything important or special as a part of its equal process.

Well if there was such a thing as evolution I would be in agreement with you, however life was created and I respectfully disagree with you.
The way many speak of evolution here, someone not knowing anything about it would be inclined to believe it was a god.

I've seen time and again evolutionist state that no one life is more important than another, this kind of thinking degrades human life, this is exactly what atheist have to deal with when believing suicide is the answer.

... Unless that equality of life is equally high. It's so very telling that the only position you can even imagine is a person thinking of all life as being equally low.

Not true, all life should be held to a standard of respect and I do but, this person is always going to hold a human life above any other life.

Your expressed opinion of fiat nothingness doesn't match the study, however the bases of Christianity fits the study well.

It is a fiat nothing: "God thinks humans are special, therefore they are," is just god's opinion, it's not an actual objective fact. And the fact is that your view of christianity is apparently so nihilistic and bleak that you can't even imagine anyone valuing life for life, instead of the thumbs up of a space wizard.

God created all life and He made humans special and it's frightening to think that others do not see human life the most special life.

My reasoning has been expressed by many evolutionist, even Darwin's father who proposed evolution in his writings before Darwin came to this conclusion. Darwin's father had no proof of what he was proposing, no scientific certainties just a belief, yep a belief system is the way evolution started and continues to this day. Deny this all you want but, the truth of evolution is out there and you can't get rid of it. Evolution is detrimental to man and his health.

GC

It's unfortunate that your dark, horrible religion has tainted you to such an extent that you think "all life is equal," automatically means "all life is equally worthless." Such a shame.

Anyone who puts all life on the same level as human life is the one who holds darkness in their heart, all life is wonderful, it's amazing and I find it fascinating, enough so I like to study and watch it as it lives.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

So....what's dark about that?

[robvalue]

Evolution is detrimental? I having a really hard time undestand what that is meant to mean.

Things gone downhill since we figured out what really happened?

[dyresand]

The fact is and considering in the bible there is no sin for killing yourself so god wont be mad at you its just some made up BS.
To scare people from doing it. The thing is with atheists and suicide we just hit the end of our ropes and can no longer deal with anything
anymore the sad truth of it all at times i feel like damn.... why was i born again....

[TubbyTubby]

It's admirable how you all continue to debate with GC and the other delusionals here but I can't share your enthusiasm.

Trying to discuss anything seriously with someone who actually believes that gods, angels, giants etc did/still do exist seems pretty fruitless. The fact that he can dismiss evolution with a wave of a hand while maintaining those beliefs just shows me he's not worth the effort.