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If I were an Atheist
RE: If I were an Atheist
Quote:True but there are lots of things which only have circumstantial evidence in their favor, theism is a belief not a fact.
As a law student what I learned is that circumstantial evidence isn't counted because it frequently leads to unfair conviction of the innocent

Quote:True. But why are there any laws of physics never mind specific ones that allowed for the existence of planets and life?
You tell us Einstein

Quote:True. But much of it also appears to be designed and engineered to produce specific results.
Everything can appear to be designed and engineered to produce specific results depending on who's observing

Quote:The problem with the bashing theism technique of justifying atheism is it only inspires the base, those who are already atheists or those who hate all religion. That is why atheism hasn't grown significantly in numbers in many years. A new approach would be to admit theism and atheism are beliefs, opinions about how our existence came about. Since no one knows for sure and no evidence rules out either theory there is no grounds to mock and ridicule one belief over the other.
I'm not concerned with sensitivities. Your belief that we shouldn't offend or bash other people's ideas is what promotes the creation of hate speech laws that jail anyone who dares to criticize other people's sensitivities. Grow up. Atheists are not concerned with theists' feelings because we already know people will start not believing progressively - it's already happening.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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RE: If I were an Atheist
If you use an irrational belief as your identity, and take insults against an undemonstrated entity personally, then you really need to clean up your own house before busting into mine with your foreskins and your cross and your table cloths and dribbly books and over starched pyjamas.

If ideas and beliefs are not open to criticism and debate, that is totalitarianism.
Feel free to send me a private message.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
Drew... at best, AT BEST, you get us to deism. And that is just so a human mind can accommodate some anthropomorphic universe.
So what if my mind cannot grasp just how things came into being?
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RE: If I were an Atheist
Atheism is not a belief.

And I couldn't care less what other people believe, as long as it's not hurting anyone else.

This is currently far, far from the case. And until this is addressed, yes I'll continue to smash religion.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

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RE: If I were an Atheist
Dystopia,

Quote:True but there are lots of things which only have circumstantial evidence in their favor, theism is a belief not a fact.
As a law student what I learned is that circumstantial evidence isn't counted because it frequently leads to unfair conviction of the innocent

Must be your first year. Many criminal cases where the level of evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt are tried on the basis of circumstantial evidence and have won convictions. People have been convicted of murder without a body in some cases. But the circumstantial evidence has to be very convincing. This matter isn't a criminal case the level of evidence is a mere preponderance of evidence meaning just more in favor of a proposition then not.


Quote:True. But why are there any laws of physics never mind specific ones that allowed for the existence of planets and life?
You tell us Einstein
Because it was intentionally designed by a Creator.


Quote:Your belief that we shouldn't offend or bash other people's ideas is what promotes the creation of hate speech laws that jail anyone who dares to criticize other people's sensitivities.

My belief is you would reach a more receptive audience and you'd have a better chance to express your ideas.


Pocaracas,


Quote:So what if my mind cannot grasp just how things came into being?

That would mean you lack belief in any explanation that might account for our existence.

Robvalue

Quote:Atheism is not a belief.

Actually it is but saying it's not doesn't help the cause. Even if you define atheism as a lack of belief it means you lack belief the universe and humans were caused by God. You don't deny the universe exists therefore you believe some non-god explanation is responsible for the existence of the universe even if you think matter always existed. You're not going to be silly enough to say you lack belief in God but nevertheless believe God was responsible for the existence of the universe right? Of course not, due to your lack of belief in the existence of God you don't believe God is responsible in anyway for the existence of the universe.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
Thanks for telling me what I believe.

My turn. You believe in God, so obviously you think he is outside of reality. That means he is unreal, so therefor doesn't exist. So you believe that your beliefs are wrong. Oh, and you dislike really hot chillis.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

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RE: If I were an Atheist
(March 31, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Pocaracas,



Quote:So what if my mind cannot grasp just how things came into being?

That would mean you lack belief in any explanation that might account for our existence.

Indeed... Although, to be fair, I attribute a far lower likelihood to the possibility that some conscious entity willed the Universe into being, than to the possibility that it all happened through some unconscious process we are as yet unaware of.... or are just starting to unveil.

We experience unconscious processes all around us, every day.... we see galaxies and can trace their paths by assuming gravity and little else... The consciousness that wills everything into being would require that we first find it...
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(March 31, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Most atheists in my experience don't defend or support theory 2. Instead they bash, marginalize and demonize theory 1 in an attempt to make it look foolish and then claim we don't know how the universe came into existence.
Slight correction: few atheists attack theory 1 as much as they simply point out that there is no evidence to support it.  Theists want to force theory 1 into acceptance because it fits into a gap in human knowledge.  But as history has shown, whenever we learn anything about our world or universe that previously had a supernatural explanation, the actual explanation is natural.  The attempt to create a single alternative that is easily debunked is a transparent attempt to support theory 1 by implying that the only possible alternative is less probable.  This is far more dishonest than admitting that we don't know.

The "looks designed" and "fine tuned" arguments are quite poor in determining the possible existence of a creative force.  And as was pointed out, those arguments only get us to "a creator" at best.  If a believer in a particular god is reduced to word games and logical fallacies simply to get to "god has to exist," he has already marginalized his own theory and does not need any help from an atheist.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(April 1, 2015 at 4:18 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(March 31, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Drew_2013 Wrote: Pocaracas,




That would mean you lack belief in any explanation that might account for our existence.

Indeed... Although, to be fair, I attribute a far lower likelihood to the possibility that some conscious entity willed the Universe into being, than to the possibility that it all happened through some unconscious process we are as yet unaware of.... or are just starting to unveil.

We experience unconscious processes all around us, every day.... we see galaxies and can trace their paths by assuming gravity and little else... The consciousness that wills everything into being would require that we first find it...

Its much more than just the existence of gravity. It is the fine balance between the strength of gravity and other forces. If the relative strength of gravity was only a little more or less the universe as we know it would be much different.

An except from Just Six Numbers.

https://sciencebits.wordpress.com/2008/0...-stronger/

Gravitation is feebler than the forces governing the microworld by the number N, about 10exp36. What would happen if it weren’t quite so weak? Imagine, for instance, a universe where gravity was ‘only’ 10EXP30 rather than 10EXP36 feebler than electric forces. Atoms and molecules would behave just as in our actual universe, but objects would not need to be so large before gravity became competitive with the other forces. The number of atoms needed to make a star (a gravitationally bound fusion reactor) would be a billion times less in this imagined universe. Planet masses would also be scaled down by a billion. Irrespective of whether these planets could retain steady orbits, the strength of gravity would stunt the evolutionary potential on them. In an imaginary strong-gravity world, even insects would need thick legs to support them, and no animals could get much larger. Gravity would crush anything as large as ourselves.

Galaxies would form much more quickly in such a universe, and would be miniaturized. Instead of the stars being widely dispersed, they would be so densely packed that close encounters would be frequent. This would in itself preclude stable planetary systems, because the orbits would be disturbed by passing stars — something that (fortunately for our Earth) is unlikely to happen in our own Solar System.

But what would preclude a complex ecosystem even more would be the limited time available for development. Heat would leak more quickly from these ‘mini-stars’: in this hypothetical strong-gravity world, stellar lifetimes would be a million times shorter. Instead of living for ten billion years, a typical star would live for about 10,000 years. A mini-Sun would burn faster, and would have exhausted its energy before even the first steps in organic evolution had got under way. Conditions for complex evolution would undoubtedly be less favourable if (leaving everything else unchanged) gravity were stronger. There wouldn’t be such a huge gulf as there is in our actual universe between the immense timespans of astronomical processes and the basic microphysical timescales for physical or chemical reactions. The converse, however, is that an even weaker gravity could allow even more elaborate and longer-lived structures to develop.

The difference between the two numbers is nearly infinitesimal yet the effect is disastrous and this is just one of 6 'constants' that have to be in a mind numbing narrow range for something like a life supporting universe to exist. The only 'naturalistic' explanation Rees can conjure is that this is one of an infinitude of universes (or universi) with variable parameters in which one was bound to have favorable characteristics to allow life and that's the one we find ourselves in. However that theory is pure naturalism in the gaps of our understanding. We don't know there are other universes and we don't know if they have variable parameters. It also has some bizarre implications. For example there would be a universe in which someone just like me and someone just like you exists only in that universe I may be an atheist and you may be a theist.

This is why its plain silly for atheists to claim there isn't a shred of evidence, not one fact anywhere that supports belief in theism. If someone makes such a claim in a debate before impartial people there going to get eaten alive.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
Uh..saying "if things were even a little different, we'd be fucked" is not evidence, at all for theism.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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