Was it necessary to create anything?

[John V]

Ok, I see where you are coming from.

No, you don't.

Now, why did God think it was important not to mention to Cain and Abel that they had brothers and sisters? At the start of mankind, and also in Church, we were told that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth, then along came Cain and Abel as their children, with Enoch coming later. Cain murders Abel, and so we are left with three, yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters, which would nullify the fact that he was the first man on earth.

Cain's brothers and sisters. I.e. other children of Adam and Eve. Since A&E were told to multiply and fill the earth, it's reasonable to conclude that they had lots of other children.

---

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of christians have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the popular ones recommended to sound the best by their priests or whatever. So in their mind, there is a consistent narrative to some degree and they don't think about all the gaping plot holes.

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of atheists have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the unpopular ones recommended to sound the worst by other atheists on the internet. So in their mind, there are gaping plot holes and they don't actually try to tie it all together.

[Tonus]

Genesis 4 tells us that Eve gave birth to Cain, and later Abel.  When they are (presumably) young men, Cain murders Abel.  It is shortly after this that he is cursed by god and expresses concern that he might be killed by "whoever finds" him.  Later in that chapter, Eve gives birth to Seth, whom Adam says was granted him the place of Abel.

Chapter 5 tells us that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old.  If we grant that Adam and Eve were a "year old" when they were already fully adult, and that their rebellion and expulsion from Eden came relatively quickly (let's say five years) then Cain and Abel were born some 124 years before Seth.  Eve would've been pumping out kids like a factory, and those kids would've been going at it like rabbits.  Assuming few losses due to early death and lifespans in the hundreds of years, an early start to the sex lives of their children, and the breeding habits of gerbils, you'd probably have a few hundred or a few thousand people within a hundred years.

They'd be pretty tired, no doubt.  I don't think Cain would need to worry about anyone trying to hurt him; they'd probably have enough trouble just walking.

[ReptilianPeon]

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of christians have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the popular ones recommended to sound the best by their priests or whatever. So in their mind, there is a consistent narrative to some degree and they don't think about all the gaping plot holes.

There was a Christian apologist I used to like, James White, because of his work critiquing the Quran (and various debates he has had) and he has, in the past, said something very interesting on this topic. For a start, the Quran is way shorter than even the New Testament so it's not fair to say that the Quran is easier to memorize than the Bible. And secondly, he concedes that many people say they will read the Bible from the start to the end but they get to the chapters about Jewish law, such as Leviticus, and they become incredibly bored and their reading of the Bible stops there. That's not to say the Bible is a boring book. It's just that it contains loads of information that isn't relevant today.

[robvalue]

It does however have some very boring segments, some very long lists of who begat who... And some passages which detail absolutely irrelevant stuff for ages. The rest of it is far from boring I agree!

Oh yeah, you might want to check out the books that got cut from the bible and christians pretend never happened.

And there's a character Lilith who is interesting.

http://youtu.be/92mKsjp_GdM

[RobertE]

Ok, I see where you are coming from.

No, you don't.

Now, why did God think it was important not to mention to Cain and Abel that they had brothers and sisters? At the start of mankind, and also in Church, we were told that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth, then along came Cain and Abel as their children, with Enoch coming later. Cain murders Abel, and so we are left with three, yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters, which would nullify the fact that he was the first man on earth.

Cain's brothers and sisters. I.e. other children of Adam and Eve. Since A&E were told to multiply and fill the earth, it's reasonable to conclude that they had lots of other children.

---

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of christians have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the popular ones recommended to sound the best by their priests or whatever. So in their mind, there is a consistent narrative to some degree and they don't think about all the gaping plot holes.

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of atheists have never sat down and actually read the bible as a story, start to finish. I think most of them have looked at snippets, almost all of which are the unpopular ones recommended to sound the worst by other atheists on the internet. So in their mind, there are gaping plot holes and they don't actually try to tie it all together.

First of all, you are not speaking to an imbecile, you are speaking to someone who speaks English natively. Secondly, I do know what "brothers and sisters", are, they happen to be the children of my parents. So, you need to stop with your condescending and your arrogance for a start. Now that is out of the way, I will explain only briefly. As Robvalue has already pointed out, there are various parts of the bible that are not communicated to the "flock." The most famous stories that have come out of the bible have been Adam and Eve, the snake, Garden of Eden, Noahs ark, Moses and his tablets, Jesus being born, how the world was created etc. As anyone of the "flock", who killed the most out of God and Satan and they will say categorically that it was Satan who killed the most people. In reality, it couldn't be anymore wrong, with God committing genocide on the scale of Rwanda proportions, perhaps more so, and not only once but many times. Either the "flock", have never read the bible in its entirety, which means that they cannot be all that faithful to begin with, or they don't want to know the truth. I will end with this though just for you. The work has just begun on the analysis and it will take some time to do, and I will be cross-referencing names, dates etc.

[robvalue]

A parade of walking tu quoque cliches, amongst which I must nurture the little patch of pure hope that my tiny thread will somehow fit through the tinier hole of insanity.

[John V]

First of all, you are not speaking to an imbecile, you are speaking to someone who speaks English natively. Secondly, I do know what "brothers and sisters", are, they happen to be the children of my parents. So, you need to stop with your condescending and your arrogance for a start.

Hey, you're the one who said " yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters." There's nothing wrong with reading too fast and reaching a wrong conclusion. Happens all the time. When it does happen, though, you should just take your lumps and move on.

Now that is out of the way, I will explain only briefly. As Robvalue has already pointed out, there are various parts of the bible that are not communicated to the "flock." The most famous stories that have come out of the bible have been Adam and Eve, the snake, Garden of Eden, Noahs ark, Moses and his tablets, Jesus being born, how the world was created etc. As anyone of the "flock", who killed the most out of God and Satan and they will say categorically that it was Satan who killed the most people. In reality, it couldn't be anymore wrong, with God committing genocide on the scale of Rwanda proportions, perhaps more so, and not only once but many times. Either the "flock", have never read the bible in its entirety, which means that they cannot be all that faithful to begin with, or they don't want to know the truth.

Yes, the flock isn't all that faithful to begin with. If you continue, you'll eventually come to Jesus saying "ye of little faith" to his own apostles, and you'll read about faith as big as a mustard seed. The Bible says quite plainly that we have little faith. This isn't some shocking discovery you've made.

[RobertE]

First of all, you are not speaking to an imbecile, you are speaking to someone who speaks English natively. Secondly, I do know what "brothers and sisters", are, they happen to be the children of my parents. So, you need to stop with your condescending and your arrogance for a start.

Hey, you're the one who said " yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters." There's nothing wrong with reading too fast and reaching a wrong conclusion. Happens all the time. When it does happen, though, you should just take your lumps and move on.

Now that is out of the way, I will explain only briefly. As Robvalue has already pointed out, there are various parts of the bible that are not communicated to the "flock." The most famous stories that have come out of the bible have been Adam and Eve, the snake, Garden of Eden, Noahs ark, Moses and his tablets, Jesus being born, how the world was created etc. As anyone of the "flock", who killed the most out of God and Satan and they will say categorically that it was Satan who killed the most people. In reality, it couldn't be anymore wrong, with God committing genocide on the scale of Rwanda proportions, perhaps more so, and not only once but many times. Either the "flock", have never read the bible in its entirety, which means that they cannot be all that faithful to begin with, or they don't want to know the truth.

Yes, the flock isn't all that faithful to begin with. If you continue, you'll eventually come to Jesus saying "ye of little faith" to his own apostles, and you'll read about faith as big as a mustard seed. The Bible says quite plainly that we have little faith. This isn't some shocking discovery you've made.

Could you please quote some other passages? Those that are not given in sermons every Sunday, I bet that you cannot. Secondly, with your implication of "i.e. other children of Adam and Eve", which followed "brothers and sisters", you seemed to think I come from some far off country where English isn't the native language. I don't mind taking my lumps, just don't talk down to me, I hope that is clear.

[John V]

Could you please quote some other passages?

Regarding what, and why?

Those that are not given in sermons every Sunday, I bet that you cannot.

I've been debating atheists for fifteen years. I know a little more than what's in the common sermon...and my church's sermons aren't all that common.

Secondly, with your implication of "i.e. other children of Adam and Eve", which followed "brothers and sisters", you seemed to think I come from some far off country where English isn't the native language. I don't mind taking my lumps, just don't talk down to me, I hope that is clear.

Again, you made the incorrect interpretation that "yet according to you, God or the ancient scribes decided to leave out details that Adam had brothers and sisters." If you don't like being talked down to, then take the time to read my remarks and respond accurately.

[Brian37]

Was it necessary that Humans were created? Things would be so much less complicated for a deity if there was no universe or life to manage and scriptures to write/inspire, right? So, what does a deity gain from creating life (Humans)?

These are all questions that I've grappled with for some time and first one (about Humans) is one that I would want to put to Theists that approach me. Recently, I watched a video where somebody wanting to spread the lies of Abdul Waahab asked an irreligious person to compare a Human to a shoe: "Which is more complicated?", they asked. Then, obviously, this lead into: Well, Humans have a purpose.

And I thought to myself: Shoes were created because there is a need for them, as Humans traveled ever greater distances, whereas Humans were not (according to the Abrahamic religions at least). And this lead to the question: Was it necessary that Humans were created? Surely, (insert preferred deity here) can live without Humans? Why does (insert preferred deity here) want/need Humans to exist?

How do you think a believer would react if I asked the question: Was it necessary that Humans were created? If they answer yes then I will ask why and it should follow that, yes, the deity is egotistical. One might say: "My favourite deity wanted to share their creation with Humans". But that begs the question: Why make a creation in the first place? If the person answers no to the question then it still begs the question of why. And some will inevitably sit on the fence and say: "I don't know"

Also, do you think it's fair to compare shoes to Humans? I think it may not be a fair comparison because Humans have had million/billions of years of evolution whereas shoes haven't. Also, the creators of shoes are always striving to create the best shoes possible whereas Humans are stuck with this faulty design.

Context, nature ultimately doesn't care, our evolution is an outcome, not a starting point. Even just the history of this planet, our species dwindled down to 2,000 to some estimates. A meteor could have done us in the same way it did the dinosaurs. We got lucky. But that luck still will run out.