Hostage to fear

[The Grand Nudger]

No discussion of our evolution can be had that does not include a discussion of our ancestry.  They can -say- they don't have a problem with evolution all they want.....but as long as they manage, on the same page, to describe the very problem they have with evolution.......in no uncertain terms, it's just more of their usual duplicitous bullshit.  As your post was more of -your- usual duplicitous bullshit.


What part of the popes comment -already posted in this thread..in my last response but quoted again below- don't you understand, what part do you disagree with?

For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.

Again, there isn't even the possibility that this "Adam and Eve" shit is true. We know this because a component of Modern Synth..you know, The Theory of Evolution..called "genetics", leaves no room for doubt or uncertainty on that count.


What part of the catechism -already posted in this thread, in my last response..but quoted again below- don't you understand, what part do you disagree with?

The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents"

Again, there isn't even the possibility that this is "Adam and Eve" shit is true. We know this because a component of Modern Synth..you know, The Theory of Evolution, called "genetics", leaves no room for doubt or uncertainty on that count.

You see, this is what happens when you ask an ignorant shitwit, like a pope.....a question about evolution. They have no fucking clue what they're talking about, and so their answers invariably end up being a treatise on human development as written by Mr. Magoo. Of course, you lap it up...because you're -yet another- ignorant shitwit in a long line of ignorant shitwits, positively mystified and awed by Il Papas every brain dropping, holding out your wallet for another heaping helping of nutty brown goodness.

[The Grand Nudger]

Wow. Those fuckers are even more retarded than I recalled.

Of course they are, Min, they've been practicing nonstop, since you last checked. One day they'll have it -completely- down, and you'll be able to set your watch by the retarded shit that comes out of their mouths. Tomorrow, maybe, as a conservative estimate?

[Spacetime]

I don't have a problem w/ chatting with Christians about these issues.  Everyone is biased.  I don't think anyone who has read the entire thread can really posit that everyone here has been entirely "against" Christianity.  As a matter of fact, one (I am assuming) atheist proposed I simply change my concept of God to an impersonal one, which is more on par than rejecting a notion of God all together.  I'm mostly agnostic, but deism best describes my thoughts of a god if one existed.

Atheists carry infinitely more intellectual honesty than the fundamentalist Christian.  Even in the most liberal churches, you will find evangelical fundies waiting to dump on you the same old stuff.  That's why I'm here, talking to people who mostly share my same *actual* beliefs: that humans are primates, the Earth is billions of years old, that there is no personal god, etc.

I appreciate you reply.  I wouldn't have a problem exchanging ideas with you.

Great!

But you and I are not fundamentalists; we're Catholics, and Catholic theology is far more mature and nuanced than that of which you speak, agreed?

As you probably know, the Church has no problem with evolution, for example.

MUCH more mature.  Agreed.  

That is exactly why I ended my struggle to have faith within Catholicism.  However, the Church still holds a gun to my head called "hell".  I won't allow the Church to do the same to my wife and children.  Living your life with a gun to your head, is no way to live.

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Sorry mate.  I'm sure you're a spectacular person.  But unfortunately our conversation is limited to a topic I'm currently heated about.  Forgive any offense I've caused.

No offense taken.

You're looking for evidence that God exists? How can I present physical evidence when God is pure spirit? Even when God did take on flesh, not many believed...though the miracles were performed before their eyes.

However, the physical resurrection of Christ suggests that his claims about being divine were legit. Why would He lie? Let me ask that another way: You love Christ, and He loves you beyond all measure. Why would He intentionally lie to you about being God?

I've never served in the military...I was born "in between" the various conflicts which required service. Just a timing thing, I guess. But I can imagine that you may have served under officers whom you did not like...maybe even hated...but you obeyed because you had to, right?

Now, imagine that God makes His presence known in a dramatic way that is unmistakable. You know He's God, and you know He's watching. How long would it be before you resented God for interfering in your affairs?

You speak of God not doing anything for humanity while the scientists are doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to curing diseases, etc. Great! God has given us the ability to develop technology and medicine to improve our lives. Animals were not given that ability, so thank you, Lord. But let's say for the sake of argument that God did begin to heal this one person...or prevent a murder of another. If He does that for one or two, wouldn't He be obligated to heal us all? To prevent every murder? Every rape? Every divorce? Eventually, our lives would be so free from suffering that we would consider a hangnail to be a great injustice requiring God's intervention? But at what point would God have to eliminate free will in order to accomplish this utopian existence? And if we are not morally free, and we are forced to serve and obey God, why would we love Him since we had no other choice?

Just a few thoughts from someone whose views are decidely out of step with the crowd here.  

When I get home from work, I'll address this wholly.

[Longhorn]

@Spacetime

Do you know how the catlicks know about hell?

They don't. They made this shit up. Pulled it right out of their asses.

These people don't know shit. They don't have any answers, to any questions, so they just dream up whatever bullshit their flock is willing to swallow. And they use it to control people.

You or I could come up with an equally probable mythology in a day and it would have the same bearing on reality as catholicism. Look at how many religions there are, all claiming to be true. It's all just people making shit up and selling it.

Religion is man made, to control other men. So is hell. They want you to be scared so you'll do whatever they tell you to be 'saved'....like a little donation to their institution

I've been there, man. This fear will fade. Like you said, life with a gun to your head is no life.

What you need to do is open your eyes and realize there's no gun.

[robvalue]

You're very welcome Spacetime It brought a big smile to my face to see you liked my post!

I'm very glad you came here too, and to hear you feel at ease. I think you're going to fit in great! I'm pleased to hear that you don't want your children having to worry about hell. It is the absolute most sickening thing religion has ever come up with, and you're doing them a great service. Something has to be really, really unfounded to require such horrific underhanded manipulation to get people to tow the line. I really hope that as time goes on the fear associated with this fades. I feel confident it will, as your mind accepts more and more that it was only a concept drummed into your brain and nothing based in reality.

I'm lucky in that I was never exposed to any sort of indoctrination, so have always been able to see religion for the sham that it is. I wish I could transfer the clarity I have to those coming out of the transition like yourself.

[Randy Carson]

@Spacetime

Do you know how the catlicks know about hell?

They don't. They made this shit up. Pulled it right out of their asses.

These people don't know shit. They don't have any answers, to any questions, so they just dream up whatever bullshit their flock is willing to swallow. And they use it to control people.

You or I could come up with an equally probable mythology in a day and it would have the same bearing on reality as catholicism. Look at how many religions there are, all claiming to be true. It's all just people making shit up and selling it.

Religion is man made, to control other men. So is hell. They want you to be scared so you'll do whatever they tell you to be 'saved'....like a little donation to their institution

I've been there, man. This fear will fade. Like you said, life with a gun to your head is no life.

What you need to do is open your eyes and realize there's no gun.

Catholics made up hell? Then what was sheol to which the OT refers more than 60 times?

Jesus says in Mark 9:47–48, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

So, if Jesus had a Jewish understanding of sheol before the Catholic Church was founded, how is it that the Catholic Church made it up?

[Longhorn]

Point went right over your head Randy -_-

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, look at this shitkicker, confidently proclaiming that his "jesus" knows judaism better than jews do.  I suppose he'd have a point, if hell and sheol were the same place...but since they aren't...he just comes off like another head struck too many times by the pew.

[Spacetime]

No offense taken.

You're looking for evidence that God exists? How can I present physical evidence when God is pure spirit? Even when God did take on flesh, not many believed...though the miracles were performed before their eyes.

That's because that ancient culture didn't understand things the way we do. If someone saw a man having a seizure and said "See, the devil's in him!" That's wouldn't conflict with their understanding of the world around them. If you transported a scientist who could medically induce a coma on someone, when the patient came to, most people would think you performed a miracle. But "odd" things like "miracles" happened all the time, because that ancient culture had very little understanding of the world around them. Physical laws seemed to be suspended all the time with things like earthquakes, etc. If miracles were performed today, in Christ's name, like walking on water... believe me, people would convert.

However, the physical resurrection of Christ suggests that his claims about being divine were legit. Why would He lie? Let me ask that another way: You love Christ, and He loves you beyond all measure. Why would He intentionally lie to you about being God?

I don't know that Christ loves me. I never said that he did/does. You made that assumption, and you can't know that. The physical resurrection of a man who had been clinically dead for 3 days is impossible. We've never seen it since. I've seen all sorts of theories on how it could have literally happened, but it's probably one of the most improbable things in scripture. Christ's story was embellished through the oral tradition, before the stories were written down. I don't believe Christ would lie, I believe the first members of the Church would to win over converts.

I've never served in the military...I was born "in between" the various conflicts which required service. Just a timing thing, I guess. But I can imagine that you may have served under officers whom you did not like...maybe even hated...but you obeyed because you had to, right?

I never "hated" my leadership. My experience emboldened their decision making as a senior enlisted adviser, something that makes perfect rational sense. There were checks and balances to leadership at all levels. If I felt my commander was making decisions outside of his purview, then he heard about it. If he continued that course of action, he would be brought to answer for it. Every Soldier knows who Baron Von Steuben is.
"When given an order many soldiers would ask "Why?' This was what Steuben realized and built his form of discipline around. If a soldier asked why, and there was a good reason for it, then the soldier would ultimately obey the order." <-rational
What you're proposing isn't.

Now, imagine that God makes His presence known in a dramatic way that is unmistakable. You know He's God, and you know He's watching. How long would it be before you resented God for interfering in your affairs?

1) You don't know me, and your assuming I would resent God. I've mixed diesel fuel and human feces in 55 gallon barrels and burned them on orders. I didn't like it, but it was for good reason. You'd be surprised what you'd do if there was good reason... even when no one's watching. God is supposed to be the reason, but he has a history of not explaining anything. Especially when it comes to killing your own child, until you almost do it... then he stops you. But even when he told Abraham why.... it really wasn't a reason.

2) Give me a reason to believe that doesn't include holding the gun of "hell" to my head.

You speak of God not doing anything for humanity while the scientists are doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to curing diseases, etc. Great! God has given us the ability to develop technology and medicine to improve our lives. Animals were not given that ability, so thank you, Lord.

I used to think like that. But then I remembered he "wrote a book"... with at least 360 points of contradiction (many more if you could holy tradition). If God were really concerned about humanity out of love for us, perhaps he would have given us a book that contained medical and mental health science. Wrote a guide to the literate on how to treat and prevent common diseases, that *DIDN'T* include shunning people from villages. Maybe even scientific literature that would help us design optical glass for microscopes so that we could understand the very processes that keep people healthy (developing vaccines, etc.)

But let's say for the sake of argument that God did begin to heal this one person...or prevent a murder of another. If He does that for one or two, wouldn't He be obligated to heal us all? To prevent every murder? Every rape? Every divorce? Eventually, our lives would be so free from suffering that we would consider a hangnail to be a great injustice requiring God's intervention? But at what point would God have to eliminate free will in order to accomplish this utopian existence? And if we are not morally free, and we are forced to serve and obey God, why would we love Him since we had no other choice?

No you see... he could empower us to prevent those things through his infinite knowledge, and his "unmistakable" presence (obvious to everyone) would be something worthy of worship. His book could have empowered us... but instead, we get to learn how much whores love big penises and larger than average quantities of ejaculate (Ezekiel 23:20). Instead we get to learn how pissy the most perfect man can be when a fig tree has no fruit (Matthew 21). Instead we get to learn about just how primitive we were as a primates when it came to our female counterparts (Timothy 2:11).

The reason I came to an atheist forum is this; most atheists want to see people make rational decisions to increase their health and wellbeing, theists want people to get back in the pew... but only after apologizing for getting up in the first place.
[/quote]

Just a few thoughts from someone whose views are decidely out of step with the crowd here.  

Which are appreciated because I know you really believe (think) you're doing the right thing. But the greatest cause of my misery has been pretending that I believed when I simply never have. Your intentions have the merit of genuine charity, but given all we know about the world around us... it really isn't charity.

Some people are equipped with more empathy than others. Being devoid of it makes you a sociopath. I am on the other end of the spectrum than the sociopath. I've seen human conditions outside of the queue at the McDonalds drive through on the Eastern seaboard of the United States that have planted little seeds about God's "plan". Apparently that plan includes people lucky enough to be born in specific geographic areas, to people of a specific skin hue, and with the right reproductive equipment. After all, you're catholic... where is the direction of your monastic tradition going among your women living in underprivileged areas of the world? Right to liberal progressive politics... and away from your doctrines. So much so that for years, many of your orders specific to women are under pontifical investigation for heresy.

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Yes, it does.  
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

There was no Adam and Eve, we are not their ancestors, there isn't even a -possibility- of this story being true.  The church demands that it be -held to be true-...regardless. 

Perhaps another example would be both factually correct, and help to elucidate the point you wish to make?

On doctrine, you're absolutely right. But in practice, I can give testimony that the Church really teaches that the topic of evolution is really up to the individual.

... However ... from the same institution that threatens babies with hell.

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You're very, very, welcome.  I'm glad it turned out well.  Love is a wondrous thing.

Couldn't agree more.

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Quote from the same article:

"Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

"Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

"While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution."

End. Quote.

Thanks for that. I didn't know that the Roman Catholics were Gnostics. The idea that the soul and the body are separate is entirely Gnostic.

At least that's what the Early Church Fathers wrote... and they were ... kind of important to holy tradition <end_sarcasm;>

Anyone who digs theology should research "soul slumber" for further.

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@Spacetime

Do you know how the catlicks know about hell?

They don't. They made this shit up. Pulled it right out of their asses.

These people don't know shit. They don't have any answers, to any questions, so they just dream up whatever bullshit their flock is willing to swallow. And they use it to control people.

You or I could come up with an equally probable mythology in a day and it would have the same bearing on reality as catholicism. Look at how many religions there are, all claiming to be true. It's all just people making shit up and selling it.

Religion is man made, to control other men. So is hell. They want you to be scared so you'll do whatever they tell you to be 'saved'....like a little donation to their institution

I've been there, man. This fear will fade. Like you said, life with a gun to your head is no life.

What you need to do is open your eyes and realize there's no gun.

Trauma, bro.  The doctrine of hell is traumatic to young people and I was hit with it young.  I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board and use some cognitive behavioral realignment to rid myself of the fear.

Thank you for your awesome encouragement!!

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You're very welcome Spacetime It brought a big smile to my face to see you liked my post!

I'm very glad you came here too, and to hear you feel at ease. I think you're going to fit in great! I'm pleased to hear that you don't want your children having to worry about hell. It is the absolute most sickening thing religion has ever come up with, and you're doing them a great service. Something has to be really, really unfounded to require such horrific underhanded manipulation to get people to tow the line. I really hope that as time goes on the fear associated with this fades. I feel confident it will, as your mind accepts more and more that it was only a concept drummed into your brain and nothing based in reality.

I'm lucky in that I was never exposed to any sort of indoctrination, so have always been able to see religion for the sham that it is. I wish I could transfer the clarity I have to those coming out of the transition like yourself.

Thanks, brother!

There is a retired leader in my faithWiki: ] who makes very public statements against the doctrine of hell as a place, rather, he purports, it is an experience that we feel everyday when we do something immoral or bad.  He says, "Christ is coming back to judge no one".  Which is directly opposed to scripture.  He also makes scientific videos that aim to end this whole idea that a soul has gender, therefore a mind cannot either... trying so hard to make people understand that it is your mind that makes you who you are.  He's had such backlash on his views about transgendered people... the church even stepped in and make him be quiet on several issues.  Go figure.

I'm glad you weren't infused with such a fear either.  I wish no one was.  Life's been extremely difficult and burdensome with it over my head.  I have fleeting moments of liberation, but am still very fearful.  Religion has such a great way of contorting people's natural abilities to reason.

Thanks again!!!

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Catholics made up hell? Then what was sheol to which the OT refers more than 60 times?  

Jesus says in Mark 9:47–48, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

So, if Jesus had a Jewish understanding of sheol before the Catholic Church was founded, how is it that the Catholic Church made it up?

That's where your argument fails though. The church literally had to innovate ideas based on Hebrew scripture to make the Christian religion seem like the fulfillment of the Mosaic tradition (see Christ born in Bethlehem as example).

Biblical literalism is killing Christianity. Who interprets what is literal and what is allegory? I used to LOVE to quote Irenaeus when someone was arguing a point to me like I am with you now. Problem is, Irenaeus was born how long after Paul was beheaded? What was the earliest known canonical document in the New Testament? Who authored it? What does it say about Christ's miracles? Then how long after that book was written were the gospels?

...You see, the catholic church didn't make hell up. It simply HAD to start taking things literally in order to make Christ divine.

And regarding Sheol... What is *your* understanding of Sheol?

[Exian]

Look at the fucking new guy!

I really hope you dig it here, because I fucking dig having you here.