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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:24 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:25 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 29, 2015 at 11:22 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Actually there needs to be done two systematic approaches: Awesome...proposals!
Quote:What is the goal of Prophets? To implement justice. Yet we know there codes of practice always changed and was not the same, different Messengers different codes suited for their society. Is it really possible to implement for example the exact tax of the Prophet to a time when we need health care, to build roads, to fund schools, etc... Or do we say all these things aren't necessary?
It's the same with progress with regards to slavery. The Quran says to free the slave is of the higher road. Then what of freeing all slaves. It seems the world no longer wants slavery and hence it's no longer necessary in the spirit of "respond/attack them in the manner they respond/attack you" to have slaves.
I feel we to call for reflection. Some laws of course have to believed to never had any place in Islam in the first place like killing apostates, and some laws are obviously to be replaced by something we can better implement during this day and age.
We have to reflect, but I don't think throwing away all laws of the Quran or Sunnah is the way either. Rather somethings still apply to society today and somethings don't.
Also a lot of things were made up in the religion via hadiths, and we need to acknowledge those hadiths contradict both reason and Quran. As for the latter, let's appeal to the fact revelations of the past were distorted. So how do we know hadiths are immune?
Um....you just appealed to Islam....obviously that isn't going to work if their islam is different than your islam.............wtf?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:25 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:26 am by Mystic.)
(October 29, 2015 at 11:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 11:22 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Actually there needs to be done two systematic approaches:
Um....you just appealed to Islam....obviously that isn't going to work if their islam is different than your islam.............wtf?
I'm appealing to reasoning, better reasoning to interpret texts and also do away with some texts (fabricated hadiths that go against reason as well as Quran).
Obviously the die hard zealous ones will not change their minds, but we are trying to win the majority of people's hearts, and not all.
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:26 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Oh good god.......you're trying to appeal to reason over islam? Do you not read the threads -just- on this board? Why on earth would you expect this to work?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:30 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:31 am by Mystic.)
(October 29, 2015 at 11:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: Oh good god.......you're trying to appeal to reason over islam? Do you not read the threads on this board?
Yes. Reason comes first. It's only through reason we ought to accept Islam as religion, and it's only through reason we ought to believe in Messengers to begin with. So why throw away reason when it's the basis? In the past, not only the sayings of the Prophet are subject to the judgement of reason, but so is the very books they revealed, for they were not protected from distortion. Quran is believed to be protected from distortion, however, even to verify that, we need reasoning, as saying it is protected because it says so is circular reasoning.
..."and He puts uncleanness on those who don't use reason"-Quran
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:33 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:35 am by The Grand Nudger.)
If the pitch is "reason comes first".....I think you're going to have trouble recruiting muslims, especially those muslims this would be aimed at.
There is no "we" Mystic..in your appraisal. You accept one type of islam, they accept another. You aren't both accepting the same thing. You're talking about "reasoning" them out of their religion...and into yours. Why not just send christian missionaries?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:33 am
(October 29, 2015 at 11:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: Why on earth would you expect this to work?
It's the human nature to prefer higher reasoning and enlightenment. Some hadiths have no place today. Some interpretations of Quran are obviously wrong to clear reasoning. It's time to move forward.
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:35 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:36 am by The Grand Nudger.)
-to christianity. Eh? Why not send missionaries, if the aim is conversion? I'd be willing to volunteer the entire catholic church in the US. They can pull up all stakes here and move there, to solve this problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:36 am
(October 29, 2015 at 11:33 am)Rhythm Wrote: There is no "we" Mystic..in your appraisal. You accept one type of islam, they accept another. You aren't both accepting the same thing. You're talking about -reasoning- them out of their religion...and into yours.
You are essentially right, but we have to try. They aren't going to become Atheists or Deists, if they aren't going to even come to a more reasonable approach to Quran and hadiths.
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 11:38 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Aren't these people rebelling against -precisely- what you're proposing? They're taking islam and the caliphate back, eh? The solution to the problem, is to inject more of what caused the problem?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam
October 29, 2015 at 11:39 am
(October 29, 2015 at 11:37 am)Rhythm Wrote: Aren;t these people rebelling against -precisely- what you're proposing. The solution to the problem, is to inject more of what caused the problem?
We got to win the majority heart of Muslims so that we can move forward with a reasonable government system that is by the people and for the people, and protects minority rights.
I'm not concerned with ISIS, I know we won't convince them. But we can't let them sway the opinion of the majority.
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