Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam

[abaris]

Really?  It has to be that way, because we need to see a decrease in roadside bombs and imperialist insurgencies.....

That's as simplistic as Harris usually is. Gran believing in Allah usually doesn't plant roadside bombs. It's on the same lines as making no distinction between someone going to church on sunday and Westboro baptist church activists.

This broad brush is the main reason why I personally dislike Harris.

[The Grand Nudger]

Are the majority currently in the opinion of Isis?  If they aren't...and yet Isis exists...then clearly the majority opinion doesn't have the power(or will) to solve the problem.

@abaris...reread the question to which I offered that as an answer.  Why do we have to choose between secular islam and isis islam..........

I repeat: because we want to see a reduction in roadside bombs and imperialist insurgencies.

Unless Gran is in fucking ISIS.......I'm not sure what she has to do with it?  No, islam doesn't -mean- roadside bombs and insurgencies...but isis islam does. There is a choice to be made between an islam that is constrained -by law-...and an islam that constrains the law.

[abaris]

Are the majority currently in the opinion of Isis?  If they aren't...and yet Isis exists...then clearly the majority opinion doesn't have the power(or will) to solve the problem.

As is the case with every radical religious group. Otherwise the nutters wouldn't exist. Christian, jewish or Islamic. I take a big shit on every radical but I don't blame every religious person for what the nutters do.

[Mystic]

Are the majority currently in the opinion of Isis?  If they aren't...and yet Isis exists...then clearly the majority opinion doesn't have the power(or will) to solve the problem.

They are closer to the opinion of ISIS then many think in my opinion. They just don't condone everything ISIS does, but their Islam is not too different. However there is growing population that is supporting them despite their crimes.

The problem is we need direction. A plan. A movement. Something that counters this movement.  And the problem is that any movement with understanding of Islam right now can prove to problematic human rights wise.

We also need to move beyond the conjecture that Israel must be destroyed. They didn't have the right to establish the state, but we didn't have the right to sell homes for money and then attack them for buying our homes and growing in population. It's not a black and white issue. We lost the war. They won. It's time to move on. Bring a solution to the Palestinian crisis instead of this Israel must be destroyed mentality. 

If we are blood thirsty for the death of Israel, then can we blame countries working against us and not trusting us with countries?

It's time to move on. Quran teaches peace is the primary principle, to seek it primarily and not as a last resort (just because you can't win, then say peace for example).

It's time to for us to become peace seekers.

[WinterHold]

Check my head....?  They're the ones who declared it.  They;re the ones pursuing the means required to that end.  I don't have any reason to doubt the things that they declare and then visibly work towards.  

If you think that the opinions and conspiracy theories born out of your compulsion to excuse islam are sufficient reason to doubt their statements and actions....you've greatly overestimated the both the value of your opinions -and- conspiracy theories, to me.

Operation Cyclone is conspiracy theories ? I'll be damned -_-

Anyhow, I don't have to excuse Islam, be my guest and search the Quran corner by corner then check what ISIS do. In many of their brutalities, they actually follow nothing from Islam; they carry on cutthroat tactics that are well known in combat zones, practiced by drug cartels and zetas of mexico (visit bestgore.com to see what I talk about..I searched this for about 3 years now).

To a native Arab who is born with Muslims, ISIS is an alien, strange group. Even to Salafi Muslims. Even to Jihadists. It's no joke, from their Hollywood style videos, to their extreme brutality that includes burning prisoners alive. Even Jihadists don't use "burning" : that only came and became known with ISIS in the region.

You've got to understand, even to the most extreme Muslims, ISIS is a phenomena.

abaris

ISIS smells fishy. Awareness in politics , Middle Eastern habits and warfare are enough to spot that.

[WinterHold]

Oh good god.......you're trying to appeal to reason over islam?  Do you not read the threads on this board?

Yes. Reason comes first. It's only through reason we ought to accept Islam as religion, and it's only through reason we ought to believe in Messengers to begin with. So why throw away reason when it's the basis? In the past, not only the sayings of the Prophet are subject to the judgement of reason, but so is the very books they revealed, for they were not protected from distortion. Quran is believed to be protected from distortion, however, even to verify that, we need reasoning, as saying it is protected because it says so is circular reasoning.

..."and He puts uncleanness on those who don't use reason"-Quran

I thought we believe through God's name according to you ??
http://atheistforums.org/thread-38110.html

You're a Shia Mystic, aren't you ? bashing Sunna secretly through referring to them as the "majority" ?

Gotta love today's Muslims

btw your cult is as bad as Sunna. And shia aren't peace seekers..they just turned "lying" into a religion :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

[The Grand Nudger]

They are closer to the opinion of ISIS then many think in my opinion. They just don't condone everything ISIS does, but their Islam is not too different.

-then appealing to their islam shouldn't be expected to produce entirely different results - which is kinda what we're after, eh?  You want to change islam.  That's what its going to take to solve this, in your opinion?

[Mystic]

Yes. Reason comes first. It's only through reason we ought to accept Islam as religion, and it's only through reason we ought to believe in Messengers to begin with. So why throw away reason when it's the basis? In the past, not only the sayings of the Prophet are subject to the judgement of reason, but so is the very books they revealed, for they were not protected from distortion. Quran is believed to be protected from distortion, however, even to verify that, we need reasoning, as saying it is protected because it says so is circular reasoning.

..."and He puts uncleanness on those who don't use reason"-Quran

I thought we believe through God's name according to you ??
http://atheistforums.org/thread-38110.html

You're a Shia Mystic, aren't you ? bashing Sunna secretly through referring to them as the "majority" ?

Gotta love today's Muslims

They aren't two different things, reason and God's Name, nor is reason totally without a mystic/spiritual aspect.

[Mystic]

They are closer to the opinion of ISIS then many think in my opinion. They just don't condone everything ISIS does, but their Islam is not too different.

-then appealing to their islam shouldn't be expected to produce entirely different results - which is kinda what we're after, eh?  You want to change islam.  That's what its going to take to solve this, in your opinion?

We need a new Islam, neither the traditional Shia Islam or Sunni Islam or Quranist, but something that is true to ourselves and sincerely wanting to follow what is good and through deep reflection, reasoning, and dialogue.

[The Grand Nudger]

So, again, why not just send christian missionaries?  If you need a new religion, and that would help.....there are plenty on hand.