Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz on reforming Islam

[mralstoner]

If this video doesn't play then go to Sam's blog and watch it there:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-war-of-ideas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwQhu1A-Ats
Transcript ...

Penny drops at the ABC: maybe Islam really does need reform. Maybe there really is a “death cult”

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andre...here_real/

TONY JONES: Sam, briefly on specifics, you maintain pretty much that everything a jihadist needs to justify their beliefs and their actions can be spelled out unambiguously in the Koran and the Hadith…

SAM HARRIS: Yeah and I would add to that the biography of Muhammad.... What is ISIS doing that Muhammad didn’t do or wouldn’t have approved of? ... And the example of Muhammad is, as just an exemplar of the faith, is - doesn’t square very well with modern, cosmopolitan, secular, tolerant values. He was not a hippy who got crucified… He was a warlord who did many of the things that you see members of ISIS doing and that’s why they can kind of paint by numbers and justify what they’re doing with a very literalist, and as Maajid would say, a vacuous reading of Islamic theology. And that’s a very inconvenient fact which we have to confront head on and find some way to disavow the intolerant readings of these passages in scripture. 

MAAJID NAWAZ:  It’s incorrect for we, as Muslims and generally, actually, I’d say, those on the left of centre in this debate, to insist that Islamists and jihadists have nothing to do with Islam. That’s actually an exercise in dishonesty. Of course they have something to do with Islam… As Sam correctly mentioned, there are passages that they can resort to. So they have a plausible reading of scripture. The challenge, and this is more a plea that I make here on your show to my fellow Muslims in Australia and that is that we, as Muslims, have a task ahead of us, a monumentous task ahead of us and that is to begin the process of adapting, of reinterpreting our scriptures for the modern day and age… Unfortunately, many Muslims today, instead of rising to that challenge are incredibly defensive when it comes to this.

Okay, that's progress. Now we're talking about the real problem i.e. terrorists have a "plausible" reading of scripture. 

We've got past the obstinate denials of Obama i.e. "No religion is responsible for terrorism — people are responsible for violence and terrorism".

And now the burning question is: can it actually be done? Can Muhammad be rooted out of Islam?

Call me skeptical...

[Mystic]

Why does it have to be this way or that way. Why have to chose between secularism type Islam and ISIS type of Islam. This is a false dichotomy.

[mralstoner]

Why does it have to be this way or that way. Why have to chose between secularism type Islam and ISIS type of Islam. This is a false dichotomy.

Secularism is just a short-hand way of describing the goal of Islamic reform.

But really the goal is much more i.e. to remove: jihadism/terrorism/martydom, sex slaves, misogyny, child brides, death to apostates, dhimmitude, barbaric sharia law punishments, hatred of Jews and non-Muslims, death for insulting the prophet, death to homosexuals, FGM, honour killings, burkas, the house-of-land v. house-of-war mindset, etc.

That's quite a long laundry list, and secularism is just a short-hand way to describe the reforming of Islam towards co-existence, tolerance, and human rights.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why does it have to be this way or that way. Why have to chose between secularism type Islam and ISIS type of Islam. This is a false dichotomy.

Really?  It has to be that way, because we need to see a decrease in roadside bombs and imperialist insurgencies.....

(the term "false dichotomy" doesn't mean what you, apparently, think it means.)

[Iroscato]

What are people's takes on Maajid Nawaz here? What little I've heard from him makes me think his heart is in the right place, despite still believing in fairy tales.

[WinterHold]

Ew.

Honestly speaking, if somebody after all this time, still believe that ISIS is a real "islamist group wanting to achieve a global caliphate", then that somebody needs to check their head asap.

Seriously. A group of flip-flot wearing militants, surviving the airstrikes of : 1-USA, 2-GULF COUNTRIES, 3-NATO, 4-UK...I mean...

Then surviving the land attacks of : 1-Syrian opposition, 2-Assad, 3-Iraq, 4-Iran & Shia....I mean..

For a whole year ??????????

Ask yourself who's behind "Jihadi John" OP, because obviously Sam has no idea..Ironically, looks like ISIS has telekinesis powers allowing them to teleport across borders at any time, to cause the "correct disturbance" which gives the U.S or an ally the means to move.

Hey..didn't ISIS branch from Al-Qaeda ? I mean, didn't the U.S support those same crazies or in other words : CREATE THEM ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

what is so funny, is that this is not a conspeicy theory..this is HISTORY. ISIS is a proxy, just like the proxies of South America that Che died fighting.
Let's be honest..who supports them with American weapons ?

This is a crazy world, where not just cartoonist get shot, but actually little children in schools too (check American news).

Savor me this crap,OP. and Sam, I hope he's ignorant, because if not, then he's a lying hypocrite.

This is getting old. Focus on who's damaging the world for real.

or for a change, who turned his/her country into A WALKING TIME BOMB (Atomic Countries).

[The Grand Nudger]

Check my head....?  They're the ones who declared it.  They;re the ones pursuing the means required to that end.  I don't have any reason to doubt the things that they declare and then visibly work towards.  

If you think that the opinions and conspiracy theories born out of your compulsion to excuse islam are sufficient reason to doubt their statements and actions....you've greatly overestimated the both the value of your opinions -and- conspiracy theories, to me.

[Mystic]

I think I can believe original Islam doesn't teach killing of apostates or killing of those who insult the Prophet (the Quran is full of reference of people insulting him but telling him to forbear their accusations). I also believe the Quran forbids marriage to children. However I do believe in some laws that are "barbaric" or "harsh" in the western eyes, like lashing those who fornicate or do adultery. However I believe to punish the latter, one must believe in a concept of muta which refers to temporary marriage, in which one agrees on a contract that can be extended with a certain reward at the end of it (in any form, it can be dates, flowers, or money, but must be agreed upon), and that the woman must wait two menstrual cycles so as to make sure if there is a baby, the father is known, or they can agree upon full marriage after that if they want to, but any rate it's to not neglect the right of the child. I believe with muta there is really no excuse for fornication, but without it, it's hard to say people should be punished for following desires that are hard to suppress.

I don't believe in stoning etc and I do think some things were meant in a specific context and period like cutting of two small fingers off the hand if you steal ( I believe we have a reforming system now that is better but could not be implemented during time of Nabi or Ali due to circumstances).

However I think there is a hadith that says never to decapitate a person from the PRophet - so it maybe that this law was abrogated even during the time of the Prophet. God knows best.

At any rate - if I had to chose - I rather have full on secularism Islam, but I think there can be a middle ground.

[The Grand Nudger]

You think you can have an islam in which the authority of the state is greater than the authority of god?  Good, excellent, I don't think that's true - but I don't care if it isn't, I'll take it.  

Now what do we do about all the people who disagree with us, with rpgs, in the meantime? We can't appeal to islam, apparently, their islam is already cool with whatever they're up to.

[Mystic]

You think you can have an islam in which the authority of the state is greater than the authority of god?  Good, excellent, I don't think that's true - but I don't care if it isn't, I'll take it.  

Now what do we do about all the people who disagree with us, with rpgs, in the meantime?  We can't appeal to islam, apparently, their islam is already cool with whatever they're up to.

Actually there needs to be done two systematic approaches:

What is the goal of Prophets? To implement justice. Yet we know there codes of practice always changed and was not the same, different Messengers different codes suited for their society. Is it really possible to implement for example the exact tax of the Prophet to a time when we need health care, to build roads, to fund schools, etc... Or do we say all these things aren't necessary?

It's the same with progress with regards to slavery. The Quran says to free the slave is of the higher road. Then what of freeing all slaves. It seems the world no longer wants slavery and hence it's no longer necessary in the spirit of "respond/attack them in the manner they respond/attack you" to have slaves.

I feel we to call for reflection.  Some laws of course have to believed to never had any place in Islam in the first place like killing apostates, and some laws are obviously to be replaced by something we can better implement during this day and age.

We have to reflect, but I don't think throwing away all laws of the Quran or Sunnah is the way either. Rather somethings still apply to society today and somethings don't.

Also a lot of things were made up in the religion via hadiths, and we need to acknowledge those hadiths contradict both reason and Quran. As for the latter, let's appeal to the fact revelations of the past were distorted. So how do we know hadiths are immune?